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Hunters and Game Lovers Special Report
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Orogrande Wolf Slaughter 2008, Idaho
(pdf 4.5 mg)
orogrande-slaughter-2008.pdf
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This 6×8 bull was killed a week ago up wolf creek which is 30 miles
out of Libby , MT.
Two wolves killed it, ate a bite or two of meat
and left, never did come back.
Pic # 032 shows where the bull had “hooked” a
wolf with his antlers and had thrown him out
into the snow.
A local logger saw blood and tracks on the road
on his way to a job and followed the blood to the
dead bull.
He fought hard but only two wolves can kill a
bull that’s in his prime.Goes to show you how bad ass wolves really are.
More proof that wolves do in fact kill for fun! If a person does this, it is known as poaching.   Looks like wolves are poachers after all. Should we fine them and revoke their hunting and fishing privileges for three years? Probably more since this bull may fall in the category as a trophy class animal. 
Admin Note: But then so are they and the season will hopefully, soon be open.
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Lewis Photographic Report of Elk in Idaho
We received these photos and report via email and felt it was important to publish the orginal email text. What follows is the orginal email and a small sample of some of the photos.
— begin email —These pictures are very gruesome, but I hope they circulate throughout the country…the most important thing to remember is the slaughter and brutal mutilation by wolves. While all animals in the wild must eat, look at how much of the animal is left- they are not hunting to eat, they are hunting to kill!!Here is photographic evidence of the slaughter of our wildlife that continues as a result of the out of control federal wolf “re-introduction” program. By the federal Fish & Wildlife Services’, (”FWS”) own count, there are now over six (6) times the number of wolves originally considered adequate (10 packs) for “delistingâ€.Politics and typical government stasis has interfered with “delisting.” The recently trumpeted delisting news was followed by the admission that the FWS administrative decision to delist will now be followed by a year of study. Then will begin the lawsuits already promise by the environmentalists that will hang it up in the courts for years.
The continued promises of delisting now convince only the gullible. The disaster will probably manifest itself in nature before the government can act. It appears that the problem is becoming a “hot potato” and the feds are now trying to get the state involved to share the blame and the costs.These photo’s were taken by Lewis Turcott. Lewis is a 69 year old retired man from Orofino, ID. He actually camped for weeks at a time during the winters to film the horrific predation taking place on the elk winter ranges. All the killing he filmed took place on the North Fork of the Clearwater River in North Central Idaho. The large cavities on the rear of the cow elk are where the fetus was removed. The photographer found and documented that the wolf always ate the fetus first and sometimes the cow was still found alive after the fetus was removed and eaten.Lewis also found that many elk were killed in surplus, or “Sport Killed”, and left to rot. During the winter when the elk are driven down low and concentrated along the river, they are easy prey and the wolves just keep killing both old and young.These photo’s were scanned in from the original photographs on 2-22-07 because Lewis only owned 35mm cameras. I’ve been after Lewis for months to allow me to scan his pictures but he was reluctant because he’s “loaned” many of them out before and never got them back.
I had Lewis stay at my side while I scanned away and he has his pictures back and the world can begin to see his work.
— end email —Click here for more photos from the Lewis Photographic Report.
Elk Lost to Mexican Gray Wolf
Photographic evidence is starting to roll in about the decimation of the elk herds in the Blue Range Wolf Recovery Area by the Mexican Gray Wolf.
This spike elk was killed by two wolves (F1016 and an un-collared male) on 3-12-07 at the entrance of the N bar ranch, you can see the hemorrhage and the canine marks on the skin . This was a healthy, young Bull Elk.
This spotted elk calf was killed by a wolf within 1/2 mile of a beef calf that was killed.
Note: no throat bite, this calf died a more painful death.
If you have photos of wildlife that has not been spree or surplus (sport killed), please do send us your photos and email us your story. If you request your name will be kept confidential.
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July 14th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
[...] is part 2 of the Lewis Photograhic Report. Please read part 1 which includes Lewis’ [...]
November 1st, 2007 at 6:00 am
People like you are such cruel idiots it makes me sick. If you’re hungry what do you do? Eat. If someone took away that food you go buy more or borrow some. Now if you were a wolf who was hungry, you’d eat. If you couldn’t find food, you have no choice but to borrow. Dude they are just big dogs (more beautiful tho) and they are going through though times now. They really don’t need stupid killers like you cutting them down even further. In a few decades these wonderful creatures might not be here anymore all because of murders like you and your lil hunting buddies.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Can I come over to your house and borrow your car. I will return it in the same condition that these wolves left the elk. Then again wolves do not borrow they take and waste.
How would you feel about a wolf borrowing a fetus out of your insides and leaving you to die? If you are a man think of them eating off your privates and living you to bleed out. This is what they are doing to momma cows. Dragging babies out while they are being born and then ripping off the milk bag. The elk photos of the fetus eaten out are pretty hard for anyone with any sensitivitiy to look at.
You have a very intresting use of the word borrow.
As a vegetarian I find it intresting your are so pro an animal that strips off meat while an animals is still alive and is noted for man eating.
Your idea of beauty is just odd to me. Puppies are cute but a wolf with teeth barred feeding or attacking your pet or beloved horse is just sickening to me.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:31 am
Comment was split.
You said: “This is what they are doing to momma cows. Dragging babies out while they are being born and then ripping off the milk bag. The elk photos of the fetus eaten out are pretty hard for anyone with any sensitivitiy to look at.”
Oh so sensitive… then I shall not tell you what humans are doing to momma cows, or veal babies for that matter!
Y’know, those photos are not difficult for me to look at, and it isn’t because I am jaded. It is because I am not detached from nature and wildness. From the fact that life feeds on life, and that this is what meat looks like, comes from, when it is not in little packets of happy foam yellow. That this is what it takes to live.
You said: “Your idea of beauty is just odd to me. Puppies are cute but a wolf with teeth barred feeding or attacking your pet or beloved horse is just sickening to me.”
If you choose to live where wildness roams. If you are aware of the predators, then it is your responsibility to keep your non-native domestic pets safe. Allowing them to wander unsupervised is putting them and our native wildlife at risk. Keep your cats inside. Put your dogs on leashes, and keep everyone in at night. This would take care of a good number of predation incidents. It is up to us to be good guardians. Our two little feline hellions are inside only cats, and are only allowed outside leashed and under supervision. We currently live amongst coyotes, cougars, bobcats, bald and golden eagles, owls, and number of other predatory species. But a far greater danger are the roads and disease from other cats. Not to mention, that since they are non-native predators, they have a huge impact on threatened songbird species.
When I was a pup myself, my parents certainly didn’t know any better. All of our cats were outside at all hours. They were hit by cars, taken in by other people, and many simply disappeared. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few were eaten. In fact, our own dog preyed on a litter of three kittens, and nearly killed the mother. Maybe worst of all, in the grand scheme, a few probably added to the stray cat population which is wrecking havoc on the native birds. Losing beloved pets broke my heart every time. It was a harsh lesson that I learned quickly from.
Hopefully you are not as irresponsible as my parents were.
The lines we draw on maps, and our specific concept of property are alien to the wolf.
As a matter of survival, it would be stupid for wolf to pass up on something edible. Why? because wolf does not have the luxury of knowing when a future meal is secure. This may sometimes be your dog or your horse, if you do not offer enough security to prevent predation, but more than likely it will be a coyote or an elk, as coyotes are a prevalent form of competition, and wolf prefers wild meat.
November 10th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
This “vegetarianwolflover” is crazy. The wolf population is out of hand. I would not have a problem if they were killing because they were hungery, but they are not even eating them. They are just killing for the fun of it or “sport of it” . This just isn’t right about the wolf eating the baby and ripped off the milk bag. This is not killing to eat!!
While all animals in the wild must eat, look at how much of the animal is left- they are not hunting to eat, they are hunting to kill!!
November 11th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
LMAO, so lets all move into cages and let the wolf god rule us. Lets just let children go into harms way, Lets just let this predator go unmanaged and decimate his natural food source being Elk and Deer, Lets forget that 165 years ago the wolf had Buffalo and more open range than today, Without managment this wolf program fails 100%. If you really give a darn about the wolf then allow hunts and self protection of property. THEN YOUR WOLF PROGRAM JUST MAY WORK. Allow Humans who also have been here as long as the wolf teach the wolf respect of a superior predator, being MAN. Im never gonna change my lifestyle for a DOG running loose and causing more trouble than its worth.
November 13th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Please get the facts straight. There are few packs that feed on Buffalo, possibly one in Yellowstone and definitely one in Aberta Canada. They are only able to do so, because of the extremely deep snow, that slows the buffalo and prevents deadly kicks. Cows, also are a difficult take for the wolves.
It amazes me that in my state, which has no eagles, no elk, no bear, no wolves, no otter, no bobcats and no cougars……those who enjoy killing for pleasure have to kill deer because they’re “overpopulated and not as big as they used to be.” (Guess what, we’ve got deer bones from the 17 and 18 hundreds and they’re lots bigger than they used to be…….so nice try…..) I don’t care if hunters kill deer and mount their heads on the wall (what is THAT all about anyway? Some sick excuse for a small penis or what?) I mean, there are plenty of deer, so I don’t have a problem with that. There aren’t plenty of wolves. Never seen one. Never seen a cougar, a bobcat, an otter or an eagle either. I have seen blackbears, but I had to drive 700 miles to do it.
I realize you don’t want to lose your livestock, and I feel your pain. I have horses and to protect them from the maurading neighborhood children who feed them 5 pound bags of apples and sugar……, but never PAY the vet bills, I installed a SEVEN FOOT SOLID VINYL FENCE, electrified on the inside, with signs posted every 5 feet on the outside. I also sunk 2 feet of plasticized 1/2 x 1/2 inch woven wire into the ground to keep MY DOGS IN and their dogs OUT. It cost $32,000.00 for 3.25 acres. I paid $12,000.00 an acre for it. I OWN it and I pay TAXES on it - and I also pay $7.00 a bale to feed my horses. My non - native predator cats - stay in the house 24/7, to protect the few starlings (also non-native) and blackbirds that may fly into my yard.
I’m all for protection of YOUR property, but here’s how you do it. Keep you pets inside. Install 4 rail vinyl or wood fencing with two hotwire at top and 8 inches off the ground. If you’ve got a wolf inside of that (and I know they can get in - shoot it. Fine. BUT DON’T LET YOUR CATTLE, SHEEP, HORSES, GOATS, PIGS, RUN FREE ON MY GOVERNMENT LAND! I only want wolves, elk, buffalo, otter, beaver, antelope, coyotes, and other wildlife, the occasional hunter, hiker, or camper ON MY GOVERNMENT LAND!
GOT THAT! Thank You!
November 14th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
First of all Katherine, you may not be aware of this but we own our grazing allotments and we pay taxes on themas property they are fee interest. We also pay an extra tax in the form of a grazing fee that goes into habitat and water development and schools.
So don’t give me that holier than though attitude and your ridiculous assumptions that ranchers have some kind of freebie deal out here. This is the west and the laws are different than what you live under.
Obviously you have drunk the Koolaid that ranchers have no rights on these lands, let me enlighten you, our ranch had cattle on it and was a working cow operation since 1879 long, long, before it was deemed government land. That is where those rights come from pre-government law recognized in current law. So not only do we own the right to be on this land, we also have the same share of the public toothpick as you do on top of that.
How cute and uninformed, as an urbanite, you seem to think our dogs and such are pets, they are companions yes but they are also stock, hunting and livestock guard dogs some our guardians for our children.
So here’s one for you. Keep your public wolf off my deeded land, Keep it off MY working stock dogs, Keep it off MY waters that I built, improve and maintaine at MY own expence, that I own at the cost of ten thousand dollars an acre foot for 80 acre feet total on MY allotment. I don’t care what your wolves drink but if you have that bad an attitude about my property and are so willing to discount MY rights, perhaps your public wolf should no longer access my water that should shrink his habitat severely.
If you wish we would be happy to send you out some of these mongrel mexican wolves so your habitat can be complete since you obviously need some kind of predator to stop those evil deer hunters. Love the negative stereotyping by the way. How witty of you.
And last but not least, you apparently watch too much TV since you seem to be oblivious that wolves are perfectly capable of killing anything they take a shine to. Of course you think it is hard for a wolf pack to kill a bison or a cow, you have never seen them in action or had to pick up the results of their carnage. Grow up and start reading what is out there on wolves, National Geographic and the Discrovery channel and Animal Planet aren’t the only or even the best resources available.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:04 am
LMAO, a 2000 pound bison after running for it’s life full speed 3-5 miles is exhausted and easy for the 150 pound wolves to take down. A moose is also 2000 pounds and more athletic than the bison, wolves eat moose to, like there is no tommorow. Deep snow is a good point though, at least your maybe starting to get a clue, All across America, especially out here, we humans live and work, we have roads and fences and towns and ancient migration routes have been cut off, thus elk, deer, moose, bison that used to travel to winter ranges below snow lines dont any more, so the cute cuddly killer for sport fun has more than they can eat since all those species listed above can not run in the deep snow. Thus the wolf packs have an unfair advantage they never had in the past.
Also my state of Idaho had wolves before this nonsense program took off in 1996 and they were original greys, not this hybrid Canadien beast. The government lied, just like they lie about owning the land. This is not a De-Jure government, it is a De-facto government. you need to learn the difference. Its called real research and investigation. Not sitting in front of that propaganda box hooked up to the falsehood feed pipe. Its a miracle your family bloodline survived thru the centuries with out hunting to provide food for the table. Those of us who grew up hunting here for food never took time out for penis comparisons and silly events of that nature, we were to busy surviving. You know that grocery store you love so much, well somebody hunted down all that grub so you could eat, imagine that store closes down and is no longer there for ya, while Im out huntin for meat, roots, plants, seeds, and such, you will be runnin with a mob attempting to steal my harvest, because people like you are really helpless.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Government land… you need to do some looking back.. I can remember seeing signs along the highway that would say… Protect your national forest … what a joke that was and is… you think the government land is yours or ours… Not
The government land /national forest is all but ours anymore. If it was ours or yours wouldnt you get to make some decissions on what took place on it? I bet you have not seen anything as such on any ballot because I have not ever had the oppertunity to ever vote on anything that the government did with the government land or national forest.
I dont know where people get there information on the wolf not killing or eating buffalo, but if you really look back an do it with a good focus, you will see that all the buffalo was killed by our government troops to get rid of the indians… when that happened do you think that just maybe the buffalo could of been a main food source for the wolf? the wolf didnt make it a hundred years ago for a reason. there was alot more sheep an deer an cattle on the land where I live and the wolf didnt make it, and will not make it now unless some one figures out a way to feed them…who is introducing a food source for the wolf? funny how that seems to get over looked, an some of the chosen ones that sit behind a desk all day an dream of the wolf just eating an killing the week an sick animals is the biggest joke there is.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Where are these reintroduction people anyway…? why dont they reintroduce Charles Manson an put about ten of them in all the big Citys that would give all of us small town people a better way of life.
We wouldnt have a bunch of ignorant people telling us what we need or dont need in our own back yards. They would have the same fear at night as we have, living out where the tame hand fed wolves are turned loose to become instantly wild… all the Defendors of Wildlife, The Endangered Spieces Act, and all the other groups of people that are behind this wrong doing with the Spotted Owl and the Wolf dont have anything better to do in life than to mess with other people’s lives an that is so wrong. They sit behind a desk or live in a big City and dont have a clue about true nature, animals become extinct for a reason… but they think they can change nature back to the way it use to be…well they would have to put everything back to the way it use to be not just the Wolf with no food supply.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:16 am
LMAO, thats a good idea, them Environmentalist invaders better hurry to cause Charlie may go extinct on them real soon, and then they will have wasted another opportunity to harrass some folks. We could call it the Manson ethnic cleansing of your town program. Think I will dial up the Federal De-facto master for a grant.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
MY public land! MY public land! Get your animals off MY public land, I pay taxes on it! yada, yada yada.
Kathrine,
Most folks don’t realize that the “public land” issue is largely based on highly debatable history and terminology with confusion promoted by land/control lust by hungry agencies and special interests. It is therefore an extremely difficult situation for anyone to deal with or even talk about reasonably.
1) Until 1976 the legal meaning of “public land” was - land entirely owned by the federal government that was open for settlement and acquisition. settlement. By that time, 1976, more or less all “public land” and accompanying water rights (gained by beneficial use requirements) had already been appropriated through this “open for settlement” encouragement and through longtime historic western title traditions further established.
2) Grazing allotments are bought and sold, passing the property interests to grazing easements, waters, and accompanying forage on to the next owner, and like any other property, is subject to an estate tax, just like your private property. Public acknowledgement of these historic property interests is stymied by years of obfuscation, intentional misuse of the term by agencies and special interests, all too eagar to claim an ever larger piece of the landscape pie.
3) The federal government retained mineral rights - the dirt and rocks under and around the property interests of the ranchers (DOI), which more or less blanket the west. In 1976 the legal meaning of “public land’ was changed so the term continued with a new definition of land “or interest” in land owned by the federal government”. The original meaning was no longer relevant as the encouraged aquisition of property rights under that meaning already blanketed those lands.
4) Enviro-NGOs and agencies never mention this - that the rancher’s real property interests have historically been upheld by unanimous Supreme Court decisions. The CBD has even been known to quote court cases, lost by ranchers, that had nothing to do with property rights as evidence that these rights do not exist.
5) Land agencies, paid special interest NGO professionals, and paid lobbyists now exert much influence, hiding the true nature of the property rights and interests all to the end of ever more power & land control at the cost of justice. As our country slips from its roots of liberty and individual rights (natural law), so go some recent court rulings based not on historic rights or justice but activist, agenda driven “positive law”, divorced from respect for all intrinsic human rights.
This extremism, blinded and calloused against all the basic liberties and respect due to all humans has intentionally misinformed you of the true nature of public land. The taking of our rights is the next step to the taking of your rights. If this kind of activist mentality is allowed to continue into the future, there will be few exceptions to the victimization, and those will only be the ones who are willing to embrace and assist, not resist, this unpleasant future possibility. A return to honesty, a respect for others, and a friendly dialog coming forth from this is the high road.
November 24th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
So the U.S. Fish and Wildlife is going to have another meeting about bringing more wolves in the area, I cant belive it they are going to have a meeting an dont want to here NO wolf, that is the biggest joke I have herd yet. Have a Meeting an then dictate what people are to say, People need to show up and say what they feel no matter what the Fish and wildlife people think, Its like they want to discourage everyone from comming, an they dont want to here what people really think or have to say, an Maybe the people dont want to continue on with all the meetings when the Fish an wildlife people are going to do what they want any way.
They want to bring I was told 90 more hand fed wolves in to the area, because They are affraid of loosing there jobs due to the fact that alot of the wolves are on the White Mountain Indian Reservation.
Amazes me how all the people think the wolves are wild ha… the wolves see humans an connect that with another free meal because the pen fed wolf has counted on humans its whole life allready but the chosen few of organizations have convinced the average person in to believing that the wolf is wild…and only eats the sick an week animals, what another joke. There isnt enough sick an week animals to feed the coyote, mountain lion, as it is and now, there is the Wolf that is a meat eater like the Mountain lion, the elk have no chance an there is not many deer left anymore. I say feed the Wolf spotted owls there must be lots of spotted owls now that the logging is gone, our forest is all over grown with bursh and wood and is nothing but a fire hazard.
But one thing for sure we have The U.S. Fish and Wildlife, Endangered Speices Act, Defendors of Wildlife, Our Fed. Government, the USFS people to count on for being not to smart.
November 24th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
Greg I am all for reintroducing flesh eating bateria to its native habitat.
I think a few reintroduced termintes to a few greenies homes. After all they do not allow snakes and dangerious predators near their homes so why should we allow them on our property.
November 25th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
vegetarianwolflover has her or his head so far up their !%!, they have no clue what their talking about. For one, wolves kill for sport, I have seen wolves hunt and kill elk and as soon as they make their kill and even if they kill them they just leave and dont even touch it wolves being relisted was the dumbest thing to do.
November 25th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
We could send them a live bobcat in a suit case for christmas, its so much fun to open it too.
November 26th, 2007 at 10:24 am
Brady,
I know the admin here is always looking for new pictures when you see stuff the wolves are doing. What has happened is many of these people have been mislead and the best way to combat the eco extreme propaganda machine (wow that has a ring to it) is to fight back with photos.
Often the extreme says this stuff does not happen. WolfCrossing and some other sites are so wonderful and posting photos (even trying hard to keep the gore factor down a bit for kids that might be visiting) to help in educating people as to the reality of what wolves do and how they kill.
Some of these people are to bought into the propaganda and the wolf worship cult to ever be deprogrammed…and they are a very small minority. These are the people that beleave the goverment put mange out there to harm the wolves. LOL.
The majority are people that have been swayed thinking they are doing good by sending some organization money for stickers to help animals and they do not understand the effects this has in the long run. THey do not understand that cow elk are having their fetus eaten out and left to die or that wolves spred terrible diseases. Diseases that have been nearly wiped out in the last 50 years but are now comming back due to the wolf program.
They beleive what they are told and the cuties pictures are for an emotional response.
So this is for everyone,
Carry your digital cameria often and send the admin here the photos.
If you have a story you want to write about stuff you are seeing in your area that the wolves are doing send that in too. It would be great to have more people writing for the site. Your story does not have to be long even a paragraph is fine. Often a picture says all that needs to be said.
Just a few ideas
Greg you could write an story about the absuritity of the ecoextreme.
Gregory it would be intresting to hear what you think after you attend the meetings.
Brady some deatails on wolf behavior in your area and what you see when you are out.
November 26th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Im working on that now, Ive got a lot of data Im working thru and then I will post it on the Idaho blog, I will let the administration here know when its up. Im also trying to get every body to go out with their camera’s, Im doing just that, Im just waiting on some snow, then its easy to track wild game and the wolves. After seeing the Robert Maughan blog, and him being from Pocatello Idaho, I realized I must start a web site here with wolf facts and truth as well. Time to swing back and hard.
November 27th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Sister Flash I dont know if im going to make it to the meetings but I will try to make a meeting, I am so busy with work an its that time of the year where everyone wants of Christmas.
November 28th, 2007 at 9:03 am
Greg it is great that you are working on a blog too. More people need to see the carnage to really see what is going on. I do beleive once people see how their money is being spent and the damage they will not support the program.
Gregory…dont you think is was by plan that these meeting were setup and a far driving distance and during a busy time of year for a reason? I think it was by plan they want to keep the hard working busy people out and the wolf groupies will be there becuase their whole life is around the wolf worship cult.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
Questions-
As I read the posts here I try not be ignorant, I have a deep respect for what you are doing Sister Flash, Gregory Scott, Greg Farber and Brady From MT and I sincerely ask you-
Where are you all from? (just a general idea)
Why should wolves be controlled?
In what ways have the wolves personally impacted your lifestyle?
What changes have you made to compensate for the new idea of wolves?
If they are to be controlled which way would be best?
What do you think about hunting the wolves?
I know some of you have answered these questions already but I would greatly appreciate a response to the other questions!
PS> A semi-morbid idea I just had: give them STD’s…
November 29th, 2007 at 1:21 am
I am from the west part of New Mexico, you ask why should wolves be controlled ? the wolf that they are dumping in AZ/NM is not even the same wolf they call it reintroducing…but wouldnt the same breed of wolf have to be reintroduced ? the wolf become extinct for a reason just like the Grizzly bear that use to roam this country an there isnt enough room for the Grizzly bear, or the Wolf , there isnt no predator control to speak of anymore, no poison is put out for the predator’s to keep them thinned down, there is no deer left here anymore, the grops that think they can bring back something that is a big a meat eater like the wolf is insane, they just think the wolf will only eat the sick an lame, is a joke in its self, the wolf they are pen feeding isnt affraid of humans which makes it worse. the groups need to figure out a food source for the wolf or they wont make it.
How has the wolf impacted my personal life style…
when the ranchers are affected and shut down there cattle operations everyone around looses out of the revenue that would be spent in surrounding towns, when out hunting the wolf will affect alot of hunters from not comming back to hunt, that will hurt town revenue.
I could go on and on and on…what good would it do?
I have allready made these same statments through out wolf tracks comments, the wolf should of never been dumped or reintroduced as they call it ……… it become extinct for a reason.
Your semi morbid idea of giving the wolf STD is that Sexually Transmitted Desease ? I guess you could get the U.S. Fish and Wildlife an the Defendors of Wildlife, the Endangered Speices Act people/organizations all the people that decided what was best for the people out west, to go out and give the wolf your STD sounds like the best idea I have herd, these organizations would be good at doing that, these groups are professionals at screwing things up. just to get there 20yr pensions in. I would like a picture of them spreading the STD on the wolves, the wolf could give them in turn, rabbies, the plauge, wastings desease.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Im living near the Sawtooth Wilderness in Idaho. I raised a wolf from six weeks till he was 14 years. I was watching 3 packs in Idaho prior to 1996. In the Stanely basin, The Bear river water shed, and the Red Mountain Area near bear valley. They were genuine natve grey wolves, last time I saw them was 1999, I suspect the transplant wolves killed them off. This really made me angry, and when government lies to us I really get angry. They lied about this wolf programn and proceeded with it before all the scientific data was conclusive, because the environmental groups use the courts to force federal management agencies like the FWS to adopt the economic elite funded research as ” best available science” through these lawsuits and appeals federal management agencies are forced to act on issues before their own scientific studies are complete. Wolves have changed the way I hike and ride my horses in the forest, I no longer picket my pack strings and go hiking for hours while they are alone in camp, I sleep in the day and stay awake at night because Im being prey tested while deep into the Wilderness. Also the habitat is great in Idaho, and the elk are being destroyed. We need to hunt the wolf to teach them respect for the human predator, and we need to stop them from hanging around peoples homes and towns, because this type of activity is dangerous. environmentalism is being used to destroy the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, it also was used by Lenin and Trotsky prior to the Bolshevick Revolution, where eventually over 100 million ranchers and farmers living in rural Russia were first disarmed of their fire arms and then killed by soldiers. thru out history environmentalism has lead to genocide, Its always about the land.
November 30th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
I feel that someday there is going to be something that is going to spark the American people into saying we have had enough and do away with the U.S. Fed. Gov. the FWS, Def. of Wildlife, Endangerd Spieces Act… and all the people that allowed these organizations to be is flat wrong, they shouldnot have the amount of controll on us US citizens, they should have to bring it to a ballot and vote as to how things should or shouldnt be. Not just let these organizations just make laws …. I still remember the sign and all the posters that use to say (Protect Your National Forest) what a bunch of bullsh-t, I dont know all the legal ways to get things started nor do I have the time to do alot of promoting the way I think at the time. But I am sick an tired of the way things are and the way things have been done in the last 30 yrs, I wonder how long it will be before there is going to be a revolution? this crap cant keep going the way it is.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:36 am
If the American populance is fooled into handing over their firearms it will be a genocide, just like the forgotten 100 plus million murdered in Russia thanks to Lenin, Trotsky, and their New York Banker Financier Jacob Schiff, who by the way has a great grandson recently married to none other than Al Gores daughter. And I would study the famous Al Gore, “Hammer Award”, awarded by Gore every year to a good government recipient for good government. Mr. Hammer being a supporter of Al Gores father, was another well known Communist. Funny how Al is the Environmentalists god. And the guy is a Buffoon.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Greg (both of you) I feel that the wolves are not the real issue at hand. Its the dang “animal rights activists” that believe nothing should be hunted. the real issue behind that is hunting and behind hunting is owning guns. they look at these things that constantly go on like the Nebraska mall shooting as a result of gun ownership. they know that hunters own the guns in this nation and I think WE do it responsibly. I honestly believe these wolves were reintroduced to knock off hunters and then gun owners. The problem is just like anything that is illegal it will only make these guns more wanted and irresponsible people (by irresponsible I mean having a disposition to go against the laws) in control of guns.
I dont hate the wolves. I just want to reintroduce them into these peoples who’s idea it was to do so in there backyards. then after their dogs and cats and then kids get attacked they might then realize they have reintroduced a menace.
December 7th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Eyemzick;
Agreed, the agenda includes stopping all hunts, and even to deny access of National Lands eventually. I have researched these lone nut shootings over the years, in fact since Lee Oswald was named a lone nut shooter. I have found that most of these shooting events have in fact been orchestrated via mindcontrol measures. Virginia Tech was in fact one such event. I have put together a 200+ file of documents with enough circumstantial evidence to point directly to DARPA, which is in fact located in the state of Virginia. This event backfired and the enemy of this Republic has backed off on the anti-gun agenda at the moment, at least publically. Virginia Tech also is a known CIA recruiting ground. Keep in mind Americans are put in prison with much less circumstantial evidence required to convict. So yes the environmental agenda is to bring forth their global land grab agendas, open up the re-wilding plans of America, and force rural freedom loving Americans to move into designated citys and or towns. Agenda 21 proves this out. We are in a war of attrition by the federal government against its own populance, the wolf program being one of thousands of tools being used to attain those goals. The U.N. is in fact in control of our Forest Service, DEA, FDA, FWS, and other agencys. The list is endless, I can go on forever, and provide documents to prove it. Americans need to pay attention and Right now.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
I herd at the wolf meeting in Alpine AZ there was only about a half dozen people there an there was a lady that got after the USF&W and the US Forest service…
The meeting was over the USFWs wanting to bring 90 bad wolves back to the area AZ/NM border and release them, they were all ready problem wolves….. go figure a meeting that was to be for the wolf, they didnt want to here about anti wolf…. so who would show up for that .. there isnt many people that live around here that is for the wolf program… How did they get the wolf in here ? I never seen a ballot to vote for the wolf at all. It just got passed that must of been when Bill Clinton was taking care of business in the oral room, and got caught and was black mailed in to passing this wrong doing of introducing the wolf.
How long ? and what is it going to take to have a National wolf hunt ?
I wrote Brian Millsap that was on the channel 13 news from the USFWs a nice email….I wasnt impressed with this clown at all… he has not emailed me back yet… I was not for the wolf go figure.. lol
You can imagine from all my comments on here what it was I wrote about…
December 9th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
sometimes I want to be amazed when I read things like this. sometimes I load my gun and go target practicing. Other times I just write back and say “ditto.”
December 23rd, 2007 at 7:17 pm
[...] Hunters Special Report [...]
December 30th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Interesting article.
But we hunt and kill for sport, so what are you people trying to say here? We hunt for things besides food all the time, kill for no reason but the simple please of having brought down a huge bear or a moose with a huge rack. We hunt for trophies and these wolves are hunting just like we do. So who is to blame here?
The reintroduction of wolves is very important. Without them, than the elk populations would soar. When the wolves where gone there where plenty of complications. The elk ate EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING. I don’t recall exactly what happened, but something about the elk eating everything effected the beaver population.
Without the wolves other things are effected and that is a fact. I don’t understand people who don’t want wolves in the world whatsoever. Wolves are a important link in the food chain. Without them, the thing would come crashing down on our heads.
December 30th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
wild heart… the way I see what you are saying… we hunt and kill for sport you say… well my sport is when I kill a game animal I use the antlers and cape for a mount and the meat we eat.
The wolf isnt the same wolf that was here before it is a hybred wolf cross with another yard dog… and it kills for the fun and no body can control how many times it will kill in a week and it doesnt eat all the animals it kills, for one thing.
its not a reintroduction when its not the same wolf, and aparently you dont Ranch/have livestock or pets that the wolf eats, The wolf that was here prior was wild an afraid of humans… the wolf they are bringing back isnt afraid of humans the wolf has counted on humans to food for a very long time while it was in pens before ever seeing wild animals. when the wolf here sees civialization it sees a free easy meal.
We dont need wolves to control the elk population that is the game and fish departments job.
What is the wolf going to eat when there main diet of elk is gone? there isnt any deer left here along the az/nm borders as it is.
The elk in AZ and NM has been transplanted so the wolf that use to be here had no elk to eat, there was buffalo, deer, cattle, sheep in large numbers the calvery killed the buffalo to get rid of the Indians food as I recall. I look at it like this the wolf become extinct for a reason, if it was the humans that got rid of the wolf, why did the coyote, mountain lions make it with out becoming extinct they are all predators, do you think maybe the plauge or rabies or some other desease had something to do with it?
you say the wolf is an important part of the food chain !!! I dont feel that way at all… the food chain was doing just fine the way it was going with the coyote, bear, mt lion we didnt need a killing machine like the wolf,and if the ignorant people that is behind the wolf programs dont get a food sorce figured out the wolf wont make it now either, the ranchers are all but gone on the az/nm borders there is no sheep or mule deer left for the wolf to eat like there was when the wolf was here a 100 yrs ago.
the report I herd is that if the elk herds keep declining there wont be enough elk to have a hunt in 5yrs… what is the wolf going to eat then? when they are out of food there comming to town for a free meal, I wonder if the US fish and wildlife will go to Mc Donalds and get them big mac’s for a meal deal? The way life really is living along the AZ/NM border. Just how important is the Beaver,Spotted owl, and all the other off the wall animals the Endangered Spieces act has done to our way of life an economy with no logging is flat WRONG. and now the wolf … a killing machine like that out in the forest with a free reign is Wrong and the wolf is going to make a very bad dent in the eco system and it isnt going to be a good out come.
December 30th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
I have hunted for over 40 years. I hunt for food if I see a nice buck I take it but 90% of the time I take the first legal deer I see. Many people depend on putting in the winter meat of elk and deer especially with the high heating cost. Let us look at the animal rights and environmentalist. We have high fuel and heating cost thanks to the environmentalist stopping oil drilling, oil refinery, etc. Now the dumb idea of the wolf first they start with a lie there has never been a documented wolf attack in North America read the pages here wolves kill and eat people it is a proven fact. Now we protect the poor wolf and they are everything that the animal rights first told us were fairy tales. The only fairy tales are all from the wolf lovers sports killing check read the wolf diaries on this site. Wiping out the elk and deer check in fact the animal rights folks are already talking about banning hunting to increase the wolf population. Another lie exposed how the perfect fluffy wolf would benefit hunters. Now wolves only kill some livestock what kind of joke is that sure is easy to watch other people get forced out of business. But I guess when you are pro wolf you hate people and think it is cool to force people to go bankrupt. How about you pro wolf people put your money where your mouth is and buy your own land fence your precious wolf in it and keep it off our public land. Why don’t you pro wolf people really do something good for a change? Oh that right you have most of the public brainwashed into believing your lies and the money keeps rolling in billions of dollars. Save the planet, save the wolf, just send us money we will take your money and do something besides spending 60% of fund raising for next year, 30% suing the world and 10% paying all your wolf lovers to sit on your rear and cruise the web to tell everyone how great the wolf is. Who cares if you ruined the outdoors as long as your billions keep coming in you wolf lovers make me sick. All you care about is your job collecting billions from the public.
December 30th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
I just typed a long comment an it wouldnt post this is very discouaging. kind of like a waste of my time…
December 31st, 2007 at 9:26 am
I live in the mountains of Idaho, not by them in them, have my entire life, I have hunted fished hiked biked rode my horses thru over and around the Frank Church, The Sawtooth, The Selway, and even Wyomings Wind River Range, Also the East side of Yellow Stone from Cody to Dubois, out side the park, Im still trying to find Habitat which has been destroyed by ELK. In 39 years of living in these mountains I still have not proved one environmentalist lie to be true. Yes, I have some big racks here, so what, I ate the body that was under it, used the skins to warm my self with. I also shot Cows and does for food as well, I ate them mind you, I did not leave them lying about for photo ops like wolfie does. I did not slice and dice and leave them for coyotes and mice like wolfie does. just for fun while training his her young. The wolf will run out of food soon, then the wolf will come to town looking for a meal, first its the dogs, then cattle and sheep, then horses, then children and unsuspecting adults. The wolf can stay, but the wolf better stop running unchecked and out of balance with that which supports him, since the wolf is not intelligent enough to manage hisself people better do it for him and soon, or yes this preconcieved notion of fools supporting not supporting wolf hunting to keep them in check, in balance, in harmony with his food and other surroundings will blow up in those fools face, oh gee, it already is, of course this is where the fools lie and backpeddle, its your guys fault my program failed not mine. LMAO.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
When will Americans say we have had enough ? What is it going to take ? how long is it going to take ?
I am disgusted / apauled how the US Fish and Wildlife, US Forest Service, Our Game and Fish Departments, our Federal Government, have taken care of business at all…. Amazing how they have gotten away with all the things they have done from the spotted owl, to the Wolf, Spinedaced minnow to the frogs to the grouse in Wy.
It seems like all the people and organizations that could do something about these wrong and obserd doings are afraid to stand up to them. Is it because of the money backing they have ? it is wrong for the American’s not to have a vote on what they do…
Why isnt our US Forest service and Game and fish depts self funded? I bet they would be be cooking wolf for dinner, spotted owls for breakfast and buying ranchers cattle to put on Fed and State land… logging would be back in a instant. They would be feeding the frogs and minnows to the Enviros.
Amazing how the US Forest service use to have to scale (measure) timber for resale, and take care of the grazing rights, and was done with just a few people, now there yards are full of trucks just sitting 9 months out of the year, just to have a few people ride around on fire patrol, Some of the biggest forest fires were started with in there own employees, and there offices are full of people/employees and for what they dont measure timber or wory about grazing rights… WHAT DO THEY DO? WHY ARE WE PAYING THEM A ANNUAL SALARY FOR?
ok I have said enough….
January 9th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
MY TWO CENTS
When will Americans say we have had enough ? What is it going to take ? how long is it going to take ?
I am disgusted / apauled how the US Fish and Wildlife, US Forest Service, Our Game and Fish Departments, our Federal Government, have taken care of business at all…. Amazing how they have gotten away with all the things they have done from the spotted owl, to the Wolf, Spinedaced minnow to the frogs to the grouse in Wy.
It seems like all the people and organizations that could do something about these wrong and obserd doings are afraid to stand up to them. Is it because of the money backing they have ? it is wrong for the American’s not to have a vote on what they do…
Why isnt our US Forest service and Game and fish depts self funded? I bet they would be be cooking wolf for dinner, spotted owls for breakfast and buying ranchers cattle to put on Fed and State land… logging would be back in a instant. They would be feeding the frogs and minnows to the Enviros.
Amazing how the US Forest service use to have to scale (measure) timber for resale, and take care of the grazing rights, and was done with just a few people, now there yards are full of trucks just sitting 9 months out of the year, just to have a few people ride around on fire patrol, Some of the biggest forest fires were started with in there own employees, and there offices are full of people/employees and for what ? they dont measure timber, not many grazing permits to speak of left,… WHAT DO THEY DO? WHY ARE WE PAYING THEM A ANNUAL SALARY FOR?
ok I have said enough….
January 10th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
It is not you land, it was never your land, we dont own the Earth, you are fools to think you do. They have as much right to live as we do - mabye even more, after all, i dont see a pop of 6.5 wolves, do I? WE are the porblem, not them, if you are going to live where they do, YOU need to be the one who prepares for it, wolves are smart, but they cannot understand english, and whiping them out isnt the answer.
As for killing for sport: so what? they kill what, 10 extra a year? people kill ummm, the numbers are so large for so many countries i am not going to bother adding them up, but it is in the millions.
The REAL reason the deer pop is down is humans: if we stopped hunting the populations would balance, like before we screwed everything up, like i have said, wolves arent the problem we are, after all i dont see them waving nukes around.
Wolves are natural, we arent, we shouldnt exist in all right, we got lucky, wolves dont attack people, and rarely livestock, and guess why they attack dogs: they think dogs are a threat, because dogs are a sub-species of wolves, the oen reason they would kill a pet is to protect their turf, which is exactly why you are asking to get to kill them, so, by your standards, they should get to kill any creature they see because it is on “their” land, im sorry, but thats not the way the world works.
January 13th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Wolves do attack people and even kill people. You have been misled Chris. But if you do not believe that come here and camp. Wolves often attack livestock and pets.
But since you think animals have more rights than people I say flesh eating bacteria is endangered in your state of NC.
Bacteria are an animal and rarely seen in NC but since it is there it should have rights. The number of people it has killed in the lower 48 has not even been recorded lately so it must be 0 and no livestock losses. So I say we reintroduce it after all it is natural and has more rights than humans…heck maybe we should even let wolves and bacteria pay taxes and vote…since Chris things they own the land.
Humans are part of the ecosystem as you admit with the effects of hunting then you say they are not natural. We are natural and part of the ecosystem good or bad. Here most of us have solar and garden organic and do not commute much like some city dwellers commuting 30 or more minutes in cars. Our footprint on the earth here is low…your footprint is much higher yet you choose to state how it is ok for wolves to be in my yard. So I say your yard. Endangered termites, flesh eating bacteria and even wolves.
Why not put your yard and home on the list. We can put wolves in your yard and see how you coexist. This is what you are asking of us. Let’s see how you do.
The real reason the deer population is down is because they are being slaughtered and spree killed by wolves just like the elk. Spree killed does and cow elk means less babies for the future..do the math. Wolves were know to die out after killing off all the snow shoe hair and then seals on Eisner Island.
Read some history and think about your impact on the environment. Your woofer beliefs are very misled.
Rabies and wasting diseases and other things are now rampant and spread by wolves. You would be ok with wasting diseases and rabies in your yard right? Just a natural part of the environment so must be good and ok right.
One person being attacked is too many. One horse, one cow, one dog, one child is too many.
January 15th, 2008 at 5:56 am
We should all just toss our lifestyles and ubringing in the trash can, no more natural hunting and harvesting our own meat, no more fishing, no more butchering and rapping the meat ourselves for future meals, no more working in the garden during personal hours away from work so as to get the satisfaction of growing our own vegy’s. No more rural free independence and thought, no more raising cows, pigs, horses. No more camping out for days even weeks and enjoying some freedom called solitude. Screw all that. We should move into the city, elbow to elbow, stand in lines, go to circle jerk races and honor them like some kind of god. Eat packaged and preservative packed foods, get cancer, let some doctor inject chemicals into us. Let some government controlled news-out-let indoctrinate our minds with bunkum science. Let the government controlled education system turn us and our offspring into a crowd of submissive whiner wimps. Let some animal be our god, kinda like the SIRIUS EGYPTIAN DOG GOD NETWORK. Let the jungle be rewilded and wait for our future plate of humble-pie from some subserviant teaching master. Finally got your minds in my palm. I knew I should not have turned down that factory job building nukes to save my town with from those rural terrorist enemys of slavery. I wanna chain-link fence too, and a radio collar.
January 15th, 2008 at 6:15 am
If a pack of Labradors or Sheperds was out there killing elk and deer and wasting them like the politically correct wild dog called wolf then FWS would do their job and stop it. If they are sniffing the trash can across town the city dogcatcher is after them. Hmmm…….but the wild doggy project, oh excuse me, those wolves can run rampant all over the place cause its NATURAL. Hmmm….. seems to me it is NATURAL to shoot at them too, when on my property damaging it, or coming after me. Sorry, Im not gonna lay down in my pasture and let your project doggy eat me alive, sorry, NO SUBMISSIVE training was entered into my computer bank, errr my MIND that I use every day. Try again later maybe, submissive mindcontrol failed on this subject…..ME.
January 15th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Great job Greg you are right that if this was a differnent canine there would not be any problem. There is so much myth and propaganda saying these wolves are shy and wild. Well if that is so why are these wolves at our homes.
Then the agencys and desperate magazine editors have to toss how claims of people bating wolves. What with my 3 legged house dog that sleeping on the front porch on a sunny day.
January 19th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Great work, Greg. I thought you all should be aware of federal legislation - H.R. 3663 - introduced by liberal California Congressman George Miller. His bill would ban Alaska’s predator control program at a time when wolves on reeking havoc on Alaskan’s ability to put food on the table — and killing and eating their dogs. The bill would set a PRECEDENT FOR FEDERAL JURISDICTION OVER STATE WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT.
DON YOUNG (R-AK) IS LEADING THE OPPOSITION — AND HE’S MAKING SOME HEADWAY.
CHECK OUT THE FOLLOWING LINKS - AND LET OTHERS KNOW ABOUT MILLER’S BILL. THIS MUST BE STOPPED.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2008/01/reps_young_and_miller_in_dog_f.html (note the comment i posted for the full story)
http://www.nationalcenter.org/2008/01/wolf-protecting-drilling-opponent-rep.html
http://thewesterner.blogspot.com/2008/01/dear-colleague-letter-wolves-sent.html
http://gov.state.ak.us/print_news.php?id=640
And this story that just hit: (I don’t think Mr. Miller and Defenders of Wildlife are going to like this)…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,324106,00.html
January 21st, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Those are good links, thanks. I noticed the replys on the first link and read them all, I enjoyed them, Also I agree with the reply concerning the impact on people due to wolves, which I believe is the true intent and purpose of loosing wolves in the lower 48, and allowing for their protection in Alaska, Heres why;
1. Damage ranchers and farmers forcing them out of business, even selling their lands. Notice who rushes in to purchase those lands when the choice to sell is made.
2. Loose the perfect killing machine out upon the forests, Of course decimation of wild game will occur, a valuable and sustainable food source for people is eventually gone.
3. You citizens will no longer need your guns as hunting has been banned due to human over-use of forest lands from hunting, sno-machines, and motorbikes.
Blaine county Idaho is trying to close down 160,000 acres of BLM land right now from sno-machines, claiming they are harming wildlife. This of course is the first step, next it will be 160 million acres. Funny how the last 70+ years our game animals have thrived and survived with no problems. Now after 12 years of wolves decimating our herds, it is WE HUMANS who use the forest lands who are to be blamed and punished.
These morons even want dipers on my stock while riding on those lands soon as well, guess after 39 years of saddle tramping about my horse was damaging the eco system I rode thru, funny I didnt notice it.
Ive decided it really is a mad mad mad mad world. All I can say is my powder is dry and Im diggin in, we are surrounded, Time to get dog mean and nasty.
January 21st, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I had to laugh at Chris when the pro wolf side talks about the wolf it our public land but when a Hunter replies back oh no no one owns the land. Typical. Greg, Sisterflash, Carbiou Steak you all have done a great job. It is a lie that the wolves balance nature. Read the old Native American writing and I find they hunted, trapped, and denned wolves. Yes Denned wolves killing the pups. The pro wolf side is losing numbers every day they are really a tiny percentage of Americans the majority are waking up to all the lies, fairy tales and misconception put out by the pro wolf side. Nov 19 1891 MN. 3 children were killed and eaten by a pack of wolves. I guess no pro wolf brainwashed person was around back then because the next day the Real Americans had a huge wolf hunt. Imagine that real Americans with a backbone killed wolves to protect children. How did that happen? Real Americans shoot wolves for the health and safety of the children.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
You stupid ignorant humans. We kill for sport too! Most wolves (96.37%) kill their prey to live. Not for sport. But us, we kill so many animals every year and in most cases, it’s not even for food. We kill for the plain fun of it, which to me, is not fun at all. Wolves are magnificent creatures. Why are you boisterous babbling buffoons even making a big deal out of this. If you were going to do the exact same thing to the calf, why is it worse when the wolf does? Us humans, are responsible for global warming. Don’t try to tell me I’m wrong because I have been studying this for years. I know the facts. Wolves are so intelligent. They live and work together all the time. We can’t do that. We even kill each other. We are completely inhumane and totally insane. We are ill minded. We are the problem here. We are responsible for the Earth’s meltdown. I have never heard of a wolf killing a person before but there have probably been a few cases. A FEW. How many animals have we killed? Billions. For fun. Wolves do balance the ecosystem. Just like the rest of the animals on Earth. Except us. The world would be better off without us. Sure, maybe there would be too many cows the first few years but in the long run, things would be way better. If you think we are doing anything right, you are wrong. You are demons. Devils. Evil. Don’t tell me I’m wrong. You don’t know that you are evil, but you are. You don’t think so, but it’s true. Humans are evil. You slaughter innocence.
January 25th, 2008 at 9:10 am
Alpha Lupine I suggest you drink some carrot juice with a touch of beet and ginger mixed in as well, Hopefully you own a juicer and can use it. This will help calm your overheated liver and kidneys and allow proper self thought patterns to eventually return, turn off the Al Gore movie and stop reading books by Armand Hammer. Please please stop giving wolfie all that unfair credit of being a wonderful ecosystem manager, it is just not so. I must step out side now and shovel the global warming off my porch again, it is five feet deep now another eight inches just landed here, so I must do my part and fight it back from the door. Then I can only hope and pray for your lost mind to someday return to rational thought. Those were wonderful pieces of innocence next to my vegy’s last night, I sure enjoyed em.
March 3rd, 2008 at 6:12 pm
How is it that folks in DC and other over populated areas can choose what wildlife and predators I should have in my back yard. Fo that matter why should people be epected to sit back and watch economies die while timber burns. If I could load up several dozen wolves and a few griz and turn them loose on the streets of DC, I would. It is amusing to watch the green strategies of deceit and terrorism to acheive filling our hills with wolves, burned timber, and grizly. The fact is there is less area for wolves. Elk and deer are in concentrated areas. Wolf populations will not follow the histori paths the scientist studied and will not be the same as in other areas(Canada Alaska). The population of wolves in Montana is too high. Not only are the Elk and Deer herds suffering, but the Mountana Loin, Coyote and other predators are suffering. Coyotes are nearly in town now as the wolves have displaced them from their normal range. It’s simple let the hunters and FWP manage the population.
Oh and Katherine, shove your petty vet bills, you have no clue what a wolf would do to your lawn ornaments. You can keep your plastic fences and orange spray paint, we tend to go for a more scenic less petty-jackass look out here. We try to treat our neighbors well, and help their kids learn to respect others and their property.
For those of you working on putting the wolfe population in check thanks for your efforts. Maybie some day we can find a way to cut the grants and funding for th non working class who have nothing better to do that try stuffing wolves and grizlies up the *%% of everyone else. Heres a thought if you have never seen a wolfe in the wild get off your couch and go hiking. Yellowstone is not a zoo it is onlyfenced near the pivate propety, and roads to keep idiots from driving offroad. The wolves are wild, not zoo animals, they can go wherever they choose. If you think wolves are not going to be a problem in the urban interface wait til they run out of food. Just as their pint size cousin the Coyote will grab a small dog, cat, or kid in California wolves will do the same.
March 6th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
I was saddened to discover the second of orphaned twin moose killed by my driveway yesterday. We watched them grow all summer and really enjoyed seeing them in our pond. When fall came they disapeared for a while. At chrismas I took my grand daughter, Chelsea snow shoeing behind the house. We found the mother moose hamstrung and unable get up and move. The calves were nowhere to be found. I agonized all that night and decided to go back in the morning to end her suffering. Kind of tough to explain to a ten year old why this happened. Momma was dead. After looking around a bit I found one of the calves with the rear end eaten out. It was plain to see the calf was eaten alive. The little bull drug himself around in about a fifty yard square area while two wolves ate his rectum out.
We have been seeing a lot of wolf sign about everywhere we go and I wonder just how many we have.
I wish people who love wolves could see firsthand what I got to “share” with my grand daughter. They put wolves here and we have to deal with the problem as we see fit. The lady with the “fancy”horse fence and the veggie nutjob can’t understand what we face here.
By the way the carcasses were never fed upon by the wolves that killed them.
March 21st, 2008 at 12:51 pm
SisterFlash, The word compassion is a funny choice for someone talking about killing north america’s foremost endangered species. I had really hoped that Americans had become more educated about matters dealing with wildlife in our own country. But it seems to much to ask for someone to know what their talking about before they open their mouth. These wolves were here for centuries before the european mass imigration to the america’s wherein angry townsfolk began hunting this beautiful creature because it preyed on the same lifestock that we slaughter everyday for yours and my consumption. The wolf isnt guilty of anything but living the life its lived for centuries, if you have a problem with nature and its happenings please feel free to ignore websites having to deal with the subject. Next time you feel the need to tell someone off on a matter you know nothing about at least you the proper word choice. I feel that the word ignorence would be better suited in your case. Have a nice day!
March 21st, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Sister Flash will not be ignoring this website. She is one of our administrators. She is an administrator becuase she has had wolf experience. She was pro-wolf before her wolf experience. She is far from ignorant. She is also a very compassionate person and does not own livestock for purposes of economics.
What she and we all have a problem with, is management promoting habituation, depredation and non wild behavior. This is not nature or natural behavior in our opinion. This has become the method in certain wolf programs becuase there are people who are ignorant who don’t believe it is possible.
An animal is beautiful does that justify letting it destroy and endanger unnecessarily becuase some people believe it’s beauty is enough to spare it from management? That displays not only ignorance in my opinion but bias and lack of forsight for the survival of other animals who may not be quite as beautiful.
March 21st, 2008 at 2:20 pm
” North America’s foremost endangered species” ? ? ? LOL. Let me see, In my home state we had wolves already. I watched them from 1972 up until 1998, then the non-native Canadien wolf dumped out in my home state killed them out. Also in 1995 this non-native long legged wolf from Canada was far from being ” Extinct” with 60,000 cousins roaming Canada. Nature is a wonderful thing, I got a problem with people believing lies and preconcieved science and utter bunkum nonsense mouthing off at people who took the time to seek some TRUTH for themselves, unlike those who started sucking up and buying into PRETTY fairy tales about their beautiful wolf. In my opinion elk and deer are far more beautiful than wolves, and they don’t come stand in my yard drooling over me and my horses. You think you know about nature, I didnt see you out counting elk and deer this winter, I saw you ” Gray wolf pack” slaughtering them and not even eating them. I used too be for the wolf program too, until I learned I was being lied too about the facts and evidence used too establish it. America has become a sad place when “Americans” hide behind screen names and spread the lies of others whom only want my land and my liberty. Brilliant.
March 21st, 2008 at 2:51 pm
My appologies to your administration and I can understand why a bad experience would shift ones view of such a magnificent creature, be that as it may we stand on different sides of the river when it comes to our oppinions on wolves. I dont feel that any animal should be hunted so close to extinction by humankind based off of nothing but misdirected fear and anxiety towards a creature that has inhabited our current home for hundreds of thousands of years longer than we ourselves have. I dont ask for you to accept my beliefs on this matter nor do I care if you oppose them. Although I do feel that I should appologise for a few harsh statements earlier. Sister Flash I do not have anything against you or your beliefs and I’m thankful that you have taken the time to establish a website where I can argue my case with people who share similar if opposite views from my own. I hope I didnt upset you too much.
March 21st, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Greg, I was referring to the “nubilus canis lupus” known by many as the gray wolf or “timber” wolf. If you do any kind of research (by this I mean real research in a library, and not the point, click and read what some angry 15 year old wrote in a report for school that they later turned into a website) you’ll take notice that their population has decreased by numbers in the hundreds of thousands in the past century. Also that they did not begin to prey on livestock as a primary source until their pack structures were destroyed throughout the 20th century. Even in those later cases the mass slaughter of livestock contributed to less than 25 wolves throughout the U.S. these were cases where the wolves pack had been brutally killed by government hired workes. Many believed (and still do) that the mass killings were a sign or revenge for the murder of the wolf’s pack mates. Also if you read about this you will find that we as humans are not alone at the top of the food chain, as is we share it with the wolf. If you consider how many animals are killed everyday to fuel our habbits, its a drop in the bucket compared to what the wolves take. As for the mass killings, a wolf is a highly intelligent species, some even venture to call them “land sharks” in the sense that in their world they are super killing machines. Nonetheless they will stalk their prey for some time before the attack. If the prey shows any sign of giving a fight or even giving signs of interspecies respect the wolf would pass on to a more vulnerable prey item. Only in the case where an animal (or human) exhibits pure fear in the face of a wolf will it attack. If you have lost livestock I am sorry, but I cant blame the wolf for taking an easy meal. If that is the case for you the only advice I could offer would be to move to a state where you would’nt have to worry about the threat of a wolf or a pack taking you property. I mean no hostilities in anything said above and I post this purely to exhibit and defend my way of thinking.
March 21st, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Greg, I was referring to the “nubilus canis lupus” known by many as the gray wolf or “timber” wolf. If you do any kind of research (by this I mean real research in a library, and not the point, click and read what some angry 15 year old wrote in a report for school that they later turned into a website) you’ll take notice that their population has decreased by numbers in the hundreds of thousands in the past century. Also that they did not begin to prey on livestock as a primary source until their pack structures were destroyed throughout the 20th century. Even in those later cases the mass slaughter of livestock contributed to less than 25 wolves throughout the U.S. these were cases where the wolves pack had been brutally killed by government hired workers. Many believed (and still do) that the mass killings were a sign or revenge for the murder of the wolf’s pack mates. Also if you read about this you will find that we as humans are not alone at the top of the food chain, as is we share it with the wolf. If you consider how many animals are killed everyday to fuel our habbits, its a drop in the bucket compared to what the wolves take. As for the mass killings, a wolf is a highly intelligent species, some even venture to call them “land sharks” in the sense that in their world they are super killing machines. Nonetheless they will stalk their prey for some time before the attack. If the prey shows any sign of giving a fight or even giving signs of interspecies respect the wolf would pass on to a more vulnerable prey item. Only in the case where an animal (or human) exhibits pure fear in the face of a wolf will it attack. If you have lost livestock I am sorry, but I cant blame the wolf for taking an easy meal. If that is the case for you the only advice I could offer would be to move to a state where you would’nt have to worry about the threat of a wolf or a pack taking you property. I mean no hostilities in anything said above and I post this purely to exhibit and defend my way of thinking.
March 21st, 2008 at 6:47 pm
The wolf is being used as a tool too ruin Public Lands and private property rights by men. I’m well aware of the Gray wolf other wise known as the Timber wolf. I watched such a pack from 1972 till 1998 where upon they were killed out by the non-native Canadien wolf. I am not against wolves, I am against false information, lies and deceptions of humans, I am against the lies of endangered species as well. The gray Timber wolf is doing fine in many North Eastern States, and even in parts of Canada. I wish Idaho had the Gray Timber wolf versus the non-native Canadien wolf dropped off up here. I live in my personal Library while at home. As far as reading some 15 year olds blog somewhere, I will leave that too you. I can tell you this, Idaho had 200,000 elk in 1995, Idaho now has less than 25,000 elk in 2008. And the Deer population is worse. Idaho has been a hunting state for 100 years. So do not waste my time blaming Winters, disease, or hunters. It is improper management in all area’s of this Wolf program Nation Wide, being prompted by big money, and their big lawyers, whom control FWS. And anti-hunting animal rights groups. Funny thing is, this man made program called the wolf re-introduction program has caused the mass killing of other wild species in our forests. Seems animal rights people forgot about those other creatures. Funny how you people always suggest the same thing to us people, sell out and move some where safer. NOT A CHANCE. Im gonna stay right here and KILL wolves.
March 21st, 2008 at 7:31 pm
The wolf pack is a “family” mantra is being used now, though partly true all species the wolf eats behave in the very same group family wild species tradition themselves. In fact Deer and Elk are more territorial than the wolf pack are. In the wolf packs around the world the Dominant male does all the breeding of all the females in the pack. Once other adults of the pack reach a certain age then they are forced out too go build their own life and pack. Elk behave in this very same manner, and so do Deer. Other wild Animals carry on like this as well. So this nonsense of wolves living and behaving as humans do, and we should take note of this is rediculous. I watched the same elk and deer in the same spots for over 30 years and the horn characteristics prove that they maintain a family resemblance themselves. But it is ok if one group of people forces another group of people too watch their lies and destruction while inventing any justification for their agenda they can think up. The destruction in Idaho’s forests is the fault of People letting wolves go uncontrolled now for 12 years.. People like you hiding behind your phoney screen name. I know….its just a safety precaution for in the future so when you and yours are finally proven WRONG, you will not have too except any blame. And finally its funny that those whom hate the human family unit in America would compare the wolf family unit too humans as an excuse too save a few wolves. Humanity living the sexual lifestyles of animals is incorrect behaviour and will result in the decay we are wittnessing around us in our lives. I’m a predator, but I’m nothing like a dog/wolf.
March 21st, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Greg, I’d just like to say that I appriciate that you will argue your point of view with me in a civilized manner. I enjoy a good debate on subjects of this sort, especially with those of us that are passionate in our beliefs. As far as the endangerment being a lie I’m sorry but you are mistaken. Also as I said earlier in the day the gray wolf is America’s foremost endangered species. No other animal in the history of man has met such a ripid decline in population as the gray wolf. North America was home to an estimated 2 million gray wolves before the introduction of european culture into the Americas. Throughout the following 300 years the gray wolf was branded as a monster and hunted almost to exstinction in the 20th century. We now know a population of less than 100,000 in the entirety of north america. If this isnt an endangered species I dont know what is.As for the introduction of a Canadian wolf into Idaho, their are currently only two species of wolf in existance since the mass extiction of the dire wolf 14,000 years ago, the gray wolf and the red wolf remain. The wolf you described sounds like the “lycaon canis lupus” which is another subspecies of the gray wolf, much like the “nubilus” only a bit smaller. In this instance you can most proberably contribute its agression towards a testing of its limits in an unfamiliar area. Or quite possibly the exotic species is merely exhibiting agression because of the loss of its pack mates back in Canada. Well in any instance I’m not trying to act “smart” with any of you nice people. I merely feel that there are alteratives to your agressive feelings towards the gray wolf.
March 21st, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Well I had not seen 160+ pound wolves until the last six years, prior to this at best 120, my own pet wolf of 14 years in the 70s was 115 and male. Still large, yet the larger Canadien is encredible, Ive seen 61/2′ long and 3′ tall wolves, now the packs I observed in Idaho near my home were not this large.
I’m glad your open to discussion, most here at wolf crossing only want for all of us to work together with open minds for the truth, I hope you realize America in 2008 could not handle 2 million wolves of any variety, do you agree? If so then what is a safe population of gray wolves in your opinion ? I certainly do not want them wiped out, I just need too see more proffessional management and control.
It seems to me we have other animals on this world who’s numbers are far worse than 100,000 as a whole, also with human growth and rural area’s all across America, no species of animals can be turned out and be expected to function as they did say, 250 years ago. Ancient migrations of the wolves food sources do not and likely can not be returned to these lands, due too highways, towns, city’s, and owned private property, I mean look we got fences every where.
The elk originally were plains creatures, thus they could see the wolves coming and escape, leaving only the sickened or weak, this is not so today, landlocked elk and deer in 2′ snow are no match for these wolves thus we are seeing the sport kills, wasted kills, and delicacy eating of calves and the unborn fetus. The wolf of history did not have this scenario the wolf of our modern era has, thus it is an unfair advantage and other species of wild animals are paying a heavy toll.
I just watched a wolf, dig up two foxes from their den last week and eat them, I had 14 Coyotes here on my place for the last few years, now I got two, I have seen bear dens dug out and half eaton hybernating bears lying there. The wolf is doing more damage to these eco systems than people realize. This worked in history, my own eyes tell me it is not working now. My family has lived on this land for 145 years, My kin are buried here, you guys are asking a lot in my opinion, telling me to move so the wolf can come home. Judas Priest.
I think you and I had better come too an understanding and soon, because people like me could make this program you support a success story, but not until you folks stop treating us like we are paranoid, wolf hating six toed neanderthals, we are humans and we have a way of life we love, this wolf could be a part of this life with proper hunting and management, Ive seen the couger be balanced for 35 years of my life, and historically for another 35 before me, The same managment practices would work for the wolf.
You start helping the elk and deer, and I will help the wolf, and thats the motto of most I know at home and at this web site. We are supposed to be team in America, looking out for American’s, not trying to destroy their dreams, you got a dream my friend, well so do we. Its called being listened to and offering help when somebody is in trouble, like ” hey I got a wolf problem over here” Ok you say, my fellow American, what is your problem and how may I help you, or how may we help you.
But right now we get accused of being haters, paranoid, stupid, imagining things, or worse. This thing is broken, lets fix it. lets get out an olive branch and bring people together and stop splitting them apart, I can see, and I bet you can too, this will never work until we all work together. The wolf can stay, but we need better management, and now. It is not failing because I live here, and Im sick of hearing that.
Once again I will say, Idaho had 200,000 elk in 1995, In 2008 Idaho has less than 25,000. I do not care what the liar IFG counts say, I know what I see. I can count, I can travel all over Idaho, which is covered in deep snows, those winter ranges are all but empty. It is time too face reality. I’m a hunter, but I do not want too hunt wolves, but I may be forced too. Historical balance will not take place in modern times, or it would have done so, it is not happening.
March 22nd, 2008 at 10:07 am
I want you to understand that i do not by any mean feel that you should have to move from your ancestrail homeland. I was merely stating the fact that if the problem is that bad at the moment a move might be the best thing for you and yours. As far as your wolf problem goes, i agree whole heartedly that something must be done and soon. Like i’ve said and you’ve seen first hand, these wolves are not loveable domesticated housepets they are super killing machines with sences so hightened that you and I can not fathom. I feel instead of having such a large wolf population in such a comgested area (in comparison to the number of wolves) we should disperse the population across our wonderful country. There they can be monitored and studied in a safe environment that can support their hunting habbits. I feel that the biggest problem for you is the lack of the ancient pack system. The boundries the ancient packs established no longer exist and prey items are different. A wolf will always choose an easy meal (an animal that is obviously afraid of it) over an anim,al that poses a potential threat. Only in starvation situation are these lines breached. My only arguement currently is that I feel their is (or can be) a better solution than killing these beautiful animals. If you have a plan for this species thaat can legitamatly work and conserves the life of the animals I support you whole heartedly.
March 22nd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
You had a pet wolf that lived 14 years? Thats something to be proud of my friend, most wolves barely live 10 in captivity and much less than that in the wild.
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
you people are weird.. if those of u that love or like wolves love them what are you doing argueing on a pointless website like this one. . Why not go out there and do something, make a difference. I love wolves, and im 14 so I can’t do much yet but i assure you that when i’m older i WILL do something about this
March 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
I agree with your idea’s of a need for reformation of this current system. I dont mean just your idea’s Greg, though you are the most avid speaker at this website by far, but everyone who feels there is a need to reform the way things are being dealt with, or the lack there of for that matter. As things are though nothing will get done, we need a structured arguement towards the reformation of this system, and not just they come on my land and I shoot them. First and foremost we need to come together and reach terms on what we feel is the right course of action for this delema. Second, your side tends to lack the resources that my side of the arguement does, being that most anti wolf citizens are farmers where as the pro wolf citizens are predominatly government officials, doctors, lawyers. In a nut shell people that dont see these things first hand. So your course opf action would be to approach the only source that can get anything done when a monetary deficit ir reached, our government. When presented with a steady demand (which I belive you have) for a certain service to be provided, the government must act in some way. So lets make a list, shall we.
1. Government tax cuts for any person/ persons that have an active wolf pack within 1/4 mile of their property.
2. FWA establishes “danger zones” including farmland and livestock that is in or around a wolf packs perferred area.
3. In these danger zones the FWA provides sufficient protection for the lands and/or animals in such zones.
4. Government provides complete re-embersement for any lands or animals harmed or destroyed by the wolf or pack.
These have just been some idea’s off the top ofmy head, please feel free to add to the list or give your oppinion on them. Please, more people than just Greg respond to this. We’re getting tired of being the only two holding a conversation
.
March 23rd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
It’s hard to join the conversation. Let’s see if this gets in. My responses tend to sit in cyberspace for some time.
Someone said elk are at an all time low of 25,000 and deer are worse. I tried posting Fish and Games estimations of deer this year which is at 300,000 which means if deer are worse would that make elk at 300,001 this year?
Maybe elk are down to 25,000, I would like to know the source of that count? I could not find any counts on elk. Maybe they are at an all time low and Idaho Fish and Game is avoiding posting the count? But until I know the source of the “25,000†I will consider that an opinion.
This is important information to discuss. Elk have been at an all time high which should send up red flags that something is wrong and the herds are going to take a crash. If elk have truly gone from 200,000 elk to 25,000 isn’t it obvious that serious management needs to be considered?
Why do Americans insist on having two OPPOSITE sides? I still question the “25,000†figure. It could be a fictional ploy to go far to one side, but at the same time having people on the far other side saying it is wrong to hunt or kill a wolf is just as desperate and void of reason. Everyone seems to want their cake and eat it too and frankly that is a big problem in my opinion with Americans.
Why can’t we manage wolves the same way we manage everything else. We don’t have to wipe them all out like so many on one hand fights for yet we do not have to let them take over the land so that there is nothing but disgust at the site of a wolf that the other hand fights for.
Meet in the middle, keep wolves a rare and beautiful site on public lands, and let their presence be known to the casual observer via tracks and maybe howling yet available for the wolf enthusiast to actually see with the same amount of effort people apply to hunting.
With a “reasonable†number of wolves, we will not have “all time highs†of elk, but why would we want that risk? With the right number of wolves they will still maintain their magnificence and not end up with the same status quo a coyote often gets pinned with.
Be reasonable, killing to keep numbers down is the ONLY option; otherwise this would not be the norm for animal shelters all over the country putting down unwanted pets. It is sad, but life is tough. Another extreme example, abortion is often used to maintain human populations, which I am not saying it is right or wrong, just saying that hunting wolves is not as unreasonable as the one side is making it out, and keeping managed wolves is not as unreasonable as the other side portrays it.
Lets see if my gibberish gets posted this time?
March 24th, 2008 at 11:22 am
This comment if from Dave In Idaho. I asked him to re-word it. I liked his content but a small change needed to be made.
If Dave would like to post it himself, please cut and past it under your own loggin. Until then here it is.
thanks Admin
I still question the “sport hunting†theory of wolves. I was told there were some gruesome pictures that prove it but I was still skeptical. After seeing these pictures, undoubting the “ones†mentioned to me, I see no proof. I see elk eaten except where the wolves were few. They eat what they can when they can. Two wolves will not be able to eat a whole bull. Clearly there is a human presence where all these photos have been taken, hence the photos. These photos do not prove anything. It is winter, meat keeps and woves, though not said to be scavengers might come back if they have the opportunity. With people and highways around, it is no surprise dinner might get left on the table without eating. Wolves are smart; no one seems to dispute that one. If the wolves are truly wild, they won’t be hunting for sport, that is far too reckless not only due to threat of injuries as seen by the first photo but animals do not typically exhibit human behavior and wipe out their natural resources for the sport of it. The pictures are not proof.
I’m a hunter. I hunt for meat and I take it very seriously. I do not buy meat of any kind from the stores because I am an effective hunter. I completely disagree with what goes on in regards to farm raised meat and those who are pro-wolf and against managing them by the only means reasonable (hunting) need to consider the fact that those who do not sport hunt will suffer and unethical farming will have that much more of an attraction and hold on America. I agree, “sport” and “hunting†should not go together, but that is how we are raised, I know, I use to hunt for sport. We are born and bread to be consumers and trophy hunters consume like no other keeping Cabalas and Sportsman’s Warehouse thriving. Its time for both sides to be civil. I disagree with sport hunting, but at the same time NO ONE does more for the wildlife than hunters buying license and tags. That money keeps the animals we have now safe from human ignorance. For those of you reading this who hunt for sport, if you use your meat in the same manner you use beef, not just jerking it or making sausage, thank you for your contributions to wildlife. For those “sport hunters†who have freezers full of meat from the season before, give everyone and everything a break. Pay a rancher top dollar and shoot a beef cow, not much different than high fence hunting in Texas anyway.
I have no urge to shoot a wolf. I look forward to seeing them. But if ignorance persists and the food I eat and enjoy becomes difficult to harvest in an efficient manner I will likely have a different urge when it comes to shooting wolves.
Right now, we have two extreme sides here in Idaho and so few in the middle. Both sides are just as much wrong as they are right and anger has fueled their ignorance. Keep wolves in Idaho, allow for human presence which is the main issue and manage them. Spraying for cockroaches doesn’t seem to bother the pro-wolf extremist so clearly all life isn’t equal. I am in no way suggesting that cockroaches and wolves are deserving of the same respect, just saying that like cockroaches, like rats, like elk, wolves need to be managed.
March 24th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Idaho Fish and Game which is controlled by the Federal Fish and Wild life Service which is controlled by the United Nations under the Articles of Agenda 21 of the U.N. Charter and the Tavistock Institutes RE-WILDING OF AMERICA PLAN can not be trusted to give us accurate counts of elk and deer.
Many outfitters, guides, (me being one) hunters, sporting associations and other independent groups have come up with the 25,000 or less elk in the state of Idaho. We independently took it upon ourselves too drive, ride hike, snow-machine, and fly Idaho too seek out elk. I myself being a trophy hunter of 200″ class mule deer bucks and having lived in Idaho 42 of my 49 years and having antler hunted and collected antlers and skulls for 35 of those years.
I traveled the Middle fork of the Boise River from Lucky Peak too Atlanta four times this winter, counted less than 200 elk. Saw less than 50 deer, I used too go photo 200″ class bucks here and admire them also, found not one such buck. Traveled the South Fork Boise River four times, located less than 140 elk, and less than 50 deer. No nice bulls, no calves, no 200″ bucks. Traveled the South fork of The Payette River from Canyon Creek too the North Fork of the Payette River at Crouch, four times, I found less than 200 elk, and less than 50 deer, no 200″ bucks in the usual places Ive seen them over the years.
The clear Water was flown by the Idaho Sportsmans Association and those winter ranges were very disapointing to say the least. That you tube video is at this web site go find it your self. Many of us in my county of Blaine agree the state of Idaho has 25,000 or less elk. This valley I live in should have 12,000 elk wintering around it right now, We have maybe 1500 elk. Those other drainages I mention above should be holding 45 thousand elk, they are not, the Clear water should be holding 10,000 and it is not.
Now look Dave, IFG is a business, License, elk tag, deer tag, bear tag, for 70 thousand hunters annually is roughly 6.5 million dollars, and then if Idaho Fish and game sells more tags than Montana/Wyoming guess what, the Federal Paymaster or FWS chips in a big federal bonus check to help sustain that State agency, and of course further control it and what it tells you and I. Now I was born in the Night, but it was not last night.
Would you come out and say to Joe Hunter public well uhh fellas we got no deer and we got no elk but would you see to it to support us anyhow fella’s as our jobs depend on those dollars, or would you lie and cook the counts books a bit. Oh and the FWS would like that too because then the Sheople will believe that the wolves aint acting like wolves, uhuh.
So I go out and look around every year any how and what those agency’s are telling and what this ole Tom cat is seeing don’t add up. Guess what, they are humans not Saints, they lied.
http://www.saveourelk.com
March 25th, 2008 at 10:00 am
I appreciate you sharing your count information Greg. I hope I can be delicate. Your numbers are mostly opinions, which doesn’t mean they are not accurate but like the photos supposable proving “sport hunting†by wolves, 25,000 is questionable figure.
I remain open-minded. I have close friends on both sides of the issue; I don’t however have any open minded friends. Both types of my friends think they are right. My friends, who believe as you, believe that Idaho Fish and Game will allow the wolves to come in and decimate all the deer and elk. Some of my friends on the other hand believe that blood thirsty hunters like myself will come in a kill all the wolves if they are delisted.
I disagree with ALL my friends. This is Idaho and Idaho is proud and dependent on its quality hunting. It is HUGE money, no need to toss in figures, everyone should agree that the deer and elk industry is huge. Even California has recognized what they have missed out on in regards to hunting deer and elk, because they are now managing the lions the only way possible, by hunting. Idaho, no matter how much lies Fish and Game tell will not blow off the money generated by Idaho’s deer and elk herds. If the wolves are not delisted because of extremist such as my friends on both sides and you Greg who will not step aside and allow the “hunting Industry†to work.
If people would let up here on these sites and start discussing and not debating we could do something positive. Those who are far pro-wolf and do not believe in managing them probably believe that hunters are not capable of such management without poaching them till extent making the pro-wolf people more adamant about not allowing states to regulate and manage the wolves. They probably believe the way they do because the way hunters are responding to the wolves all together. If any of the pro-wolf people believe that wolves should not be managed, then they are just as responsible for the opposite side wanting to eliminate the wolves all together. There is no discussion going on here, just a debate. Nothing positive has come out of this site because neither side will concede that the other side might have a point. In making your points, no matter what side you are on, lies, opinions and half truths are being passed off as gospel.
Greg, if you are right and Idaho Fish and Game is trying to eliminate the elk and deer herds, I am on your side. But I see no evidence of this. Money matters and Idaho isn’t going to cut their annual income like you are suggesting they are trying to do.
I need to address your 25,000 count. Your count is low, just to give you and the others here an idea of how low it “may†be low is the fact that many of the hunters in unit 48 and 49 believe the elk numbers are still at record highs. The hunters I know who hunt 48 and 49 would say there may be 25,000 head of elk in those two units alone. They will tell you it is because all the wolves are pushing the elk into 48 and 49 that there isn’t and elk outside of 48 and 49 which we know is just ranting because there are elk out of 48 and 49.
If there were only 25,000 or less as you feel may be the case Greg I would be on your side and as recklessly as you, I would have told everyone that the elk were down to 2,000.
But the elk are not at “25,000 or less†they are at 25,000 or more, much more. I’m not saying your count does not support your figure, but your count may be inaccurate being done by people who want the wolf eliminated. I don’t think anyone I know in Blaine County would agree with you on your count, no matter how much they hated the wolf.
So, is anyone up for a discussion? If elk are not at an “all time high†now and wolves are indeed eating elk, why don’t we discuss how many wolves Idaho can handle without wrecking the whole economy? Greg, I am sure you guides like to see all time highs, but that does not make it a good thing. You have to manage your numbers of elk same as wolves same as rabbits. I know you would rather manage them in the form of depredation hunts, but why not have a more natural method, if it can be controlled? Farmers do not like their crops destroyed by elk.
I understand that guiding has become more complicated with the wolves moving herds around in a manner that makes finding the elk tough. This does not mean that the elk are not still out there, just means that you guys will have to change your methods and I know change is not very welcome so I am sorry you have to have it forced on you. I am sure your clients can still enjoy their experience if you approach it delicately. Let them know how clever they and you must be to harvest an elk these days because of their constant moving from one drainage to the next.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:37 am
I’ve posted this more than once because I am not sure how it works. I’ve posted before and had no confirmation and lost the whole post.
I appreciate you sharing your count information Greg. I hope I can be delicate. Your numbers are mostly opinions, which doesn’t mean they are not accurate but like the photos supposable proving “sport hunting†by wolves, 25,000 is questionable figure.
I remain open-minded. I have close friends on both sides of the issue; I don’t however have any open minded friends. Both types of my friends think they are right. My friends, who believe as you, believe that Idaho Fish and Game will allow the wolves to come in and decimate all the deer and elk. Some of my friends on the other hand believe that blood thirsty hunters like myself will come in a kill all the wolves if they are delisted.
I disagree with ALL my friends. This is Idaho and Idaho is proud and dependent on its quality hunting. It is HUGE money, no need to toss in figures, everyone should agree that the deer and elk industry is huge. Even California has recognized what they have missed out on in regards to hunting deer and elk, because they are now managing the lions the only way possible, by hunting. Idaho, no matter how much lies Fish and Game tell will not blow off the money generated by Idaho’s deer and elk herds. If the wolves are not delisted because of extremist such as my friends on both sides and you Greg who will not step aside and allow the “hunting Industry†to work.
If people would let up here on these sites and start discussing and not debating we could do something positive. Those who are far pro-wolf and do not believe in managing them probably believe that hunters are not capable of such management without poaching them till extent making the pro-wolf people more adamant about not allowing states to regulate and manage the wolves. They probably believe the way they do because the way hunters are responding to the wolves all together. If any of the pro-wolf people believe that wolves should not be managed, then they are just as responsible for the opposite side wanting to eliminate the wolves all together. There is no discussion going on here, just a debate. Nothing positive has come out of this site because neither side will concede that the other side might have a point. In making your points, no matter what side you are on, lies, opinions and half truths are being passed off as gospel.
Greg, if you are right and Idaho Fish and Game is trying to eliminate the elk and deer herds, I am on your side. But I see no evidence of this. Money matters and Idaho isn’t going to cut their annual income like you are suggesting they are trying to do.
I need to address your 25,000 count. Your count is low, just to give you and the others here an idea of how low it “may†be low is the fact that many of the hunters in unit 48 and 49 believe the elk numbers are still at record highs. The hunters I know who hunt 48 and 49 would say there may be 25,000 head of elk in those two units alone. They will tell you it is because all the wolves are pushing the elk into 48 and 49 that there isn’t and elk outside of 48 and 49 which we know is just ranting because there are elk out of 48 and 49.
If there were only 25,000 or less as you feel may be the case Greg I would be on your side and as recklessly as you, I would have told everyone that the elk were down to 2,000.
But the elk are not at “25,000 or less†they are at 25,000 or more, much more. I’m not saying your count does not support your figure, but your count may be inaccurate being done by people who want the wolf eliminated. I don’t think anyone I know in Blaine County would agree with you on your count, no matter how much they hated the wolf.
So, is anyone up for a discussion? If elk are not at an “all time high†now and wolves are indeed eating elk, why don’t we discuss how many wolves Idaho can handle without wrecking the whole economy? Greg, I am sure you guides like to see all time highs, but that does not make it a good thing. You have to manage your numbers of elk same as wolves same as rabbits. I know you would rather manage them in the form of depredation hunts, but why not have a more natural method, if it can be controlled? Farmers do not like their crops destroyed by elk.
I understand that guiding has become more complicated with the wolves moving herds around in a manner that makes finding the elk tough. This does not mean that the elk are not still out there, just means that you guys will have to change your methods and I know change is not very welcome so I am sorry you have to have it forced on you. I am sure your clients can still enjoy their experience if you approach it delicately. Let them know how clever they and you must be to harvest an elk these days because of their constant moving from one drainage to the next.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
David
Your just simply uninformed, 48, 49 do not have 2500 elk let alone 25,000. I live in unit 48. I grew up in unit 33 and I spend my time in unit 39. 39 has always been my favorite unit. I know a lot of folks in and around 48-49, No one is in denial about this situation as you suggest. I have been trailing elk herds and deer for 39 years in the places I previously shared in other replys. The IFG is not attempting too decimate herds, but the IFG is federally controlled. I do not hate wolves, but i recognize the need for better management of wolves ASAP. I have insider info as well, from government trappers, and IFG officers whom leak info silently if you will, in hopes of the people getting a clue and perhaps causing the changes in upper management IFG desperately needs. I can kill elk anytime I want during the season, I have stopped hunting elk and deer and will no longer financially support IFG and their lies. I also will not support the wipe out of the big game either. I have not liked what I have seen since 1999 thus I have not pulled the trigger. The decimation is far worse than you obviously can comprehend. I have watched all those elk herds in those area’s I travel for years, since 1996 I have watched them decline, and now those herds are very depleted, very low bulls, no calves and old cows. and where you find calves the cow too calf ratio is 30% or less, you do the math. Get off your ass and go with me, we can argue about in the truck while we go find your 25,000 or more elk. My axe is not about killing wolves, it is about the truth.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Greg, I have no doubt you are seeing less elk. I’ve hunted 48 and 49 since 1993. Prairie Creek was my favorite until it was ruined. It was not ruined by wolves but by hunters. Fish and game changed the units and zones to were you had to pick were you would hunt elk for the whole season, so much for variety and new country. Well this caused everyone to put in for the most heavily populated areas, 48 and 49. After a year or two of that I couldn’t find a parking spot out Prairie Creek. No matter, there was not an elk in the whole drainage, people with motor bikes and horse staying for weeks shoved the elk right out.
Now take that change by fish and game, add to that a long drought and the addition of wolves and what happens? Elk are not in their same places because of hunting pressure as much as wolves and as every Texan knows, horns are scarce during drought times. In my opinion, those three factors play and extensive roll making elk hard to find.
I never made a count of the elk living in the pastures just south of Bellevue, but I know there were gobs of them, some say more than a thousand. They move into the farm lands on the river before archery season even opens. The land owners do not let people hunt them so we all watch them and realize why it is we do not see as many elk in the mountains anymore. You pile that many elk in pastures and you clear out a large portion of public land.
It is my suspicion that there are more herds piling in together like those elk making it harder to find smaller herds of elk.
I have an older friend who had a cow tag this fall. He waited till the last few days to fill it, around Christmas. He and I went out in the snow outside of Weiser and found tracks of a few elk. We followed them to a dead cow elk a trapper just shot while running his line. Had the guy not been there it would have been my friend’s elk, but a hunter messed up that hunt. We followed the tracks the herd made on their exit and they took us in sight of what we thought was 400+ elk. They were on private land we did not have permission to be on, but 400+ elk are easy to find we found them on the night before the last day and killed one the next morning.
We know elk get together like that in the winter, I know 400 elk does not mean there are a lot of elk, but I still believe it is possible that 25,000 could be a very low estimate. At least I hope it is.
I have land in unit 22 and that is where I hunt. I sure can’t complain about a lack of elk there. The guys who have been around say the deer herds are not like the use to be, but I have no complaints. I can travel a two mile loop just about any day and see 40 or 50 deer. I tell the people who say the count is down on deer that and they say “wellâ€, then they say there use to be more. I’m thinking, “and that was goodâ€? There are enough elk in 22 for a seven day general bull hunt, but at the same time units 22 and 32 have more bear than any other units in Idaho, a draw only unit for bears. The elk are fine despite all the talk of how the bears sit and suck the calves up like spaghetti out of the cow’s womb.
Now, I would enjoy a trip with you to count elk, but I feel a truck would not serve us well for an accurate count. I want a helicopter or a plane and we can see the elk the same way F&G sees them. Spotting elk in the winter is easy from the air, not so easy from the ground. I just don’t see F&G lying about the numbers when they badly want to manage wolves. If there were only 25,000 elk I feel they would use that number to gain control of management they so dearly desire as much as you and I.
I know there are people in F&G that are telling lies but what lies are they telling? If they have an unreasonable negative opinion about wolves because they come from a ranching family or for any reason they will spread lies which they feel benefits them.
Now Greg, I still do not disagree 100% with your count, I just believe it is unsubstantiated and that is what I need. If we can’t trust F&G to give us accurate counts we cannot trust anyone.
Also I know this; even a few wolves will create endless complications for guides. I thought about it last night and wondered what would guides do? You guys put up nice and extensive base camps and then the wolves move in and the elk move out. With wolves in the picture, no matter what the elk counts, guides will suffer greatly.
I can’t even imagine how guides would survive with only 1,500 wolves and 200,000 elk? Will clients understand the hit or miss involved when harvesting elk was much more predictable in the past? If I was a guide, and there have been times I wanted to be just that but was told I couldn’t get a license because it is regulated to a certain number which I felt was chicken-s#$t, but if I were a guide now I would be making up as much BS as truth when it comes to eliminating wolves. I wouldn’t want one single wolf. But I am not a guide and as of now, I don’t foresee wolves threatening me unless the two sides refuse to meet in the middle just as fish and game is trying to get you to do causing them to not be delisted and the actual end of elk and deer because of the bitterness between sides, not the wolves.
March 26th, 2008 at 7:15 am
We can trust ourselves. IFG counts are done by estimation only. they fly over a drainage and see 10 elk and write down 30 elk because they estimate they missed twenty.
We had 70+ years of excellent Big Game managment and good hunts to partake of. Sure 48, 44, 49 were harmed by allowing to many draws to go forward, I saw this too.
There are more deer the farther north you look, agreed.
The sport kills of wolves are reality, the last 12 years changes in populations are reality, the less than 30% cow to calf Ratio is Reality.
I do not need a Chopper to see the truth when we are up too our arses in snow. The Sportsmans Associations have been flying the State and they are asking Fish and Game in Letters where are all these elk you claim we have. THEY ARE STILL WAITING FOR AN HONEST REPLY.
You should really stop commenting on how outfitters and guides set up camps, set up hunts, manage those Units which they hunt, your wrong on all counts.
Over hunting being used as a copout is really typical bunkum garbage. Hunting in 12 years did not create this decimation. Improper managment of an invasive non-native predator did. Its not bitterness, its not anger, its not invention nor imagination, its reality.
March 26th, 2008 at 9:51 am
To say wolves are not hurting game populations is laughable. As normal in the force relocation of wolves the people on the ground that live with them 365 days a year are trying to tell the truth. Then along come a person that occasional is in the woods. In Michigan the wolves were relocated and David Mech USFWS admitted doing it. Then the 1984 style re writes came out oh no they just magically migrated there. Ok 150-200 wolves decided in 2 years to migrated to Michigan form Minnesota. I was laughing at this and making a joke on one of the Mi hunting forums. The next year the whole wolf migration to Michigan was rewrote to show they had migrated over 20 years. I guess the wolves hired a understanding trucker to move them because anyone with half a clue how wolves migrate and disperse would know for a fact the vast majority dispersed into the wind. For the people who don’t know what dispersing means every year a certain percentage of the pups born are force to leave the pack and head out alone to make it on their own. This normally happens in the fall of the year. The prevailing winds in the fall are Northwest. Pull out a map and look where the wolves are in northern Minnesota. Explain to me how the wolves headed south knew exactly where to turn east travel through all that great country in Wisconsin then knew exactly when to turn North again then magically turn east again and dispersed through the whole Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Bear with me explain how the wind over 20 year time frame supposedly during dispersal time came from the south, then at the exact time the wolves need it to change came from the east, then at the exact time the wolves need it to change came from the north, then at the exact time the wolves need it to change came from the east. Dispersal happen over 2-3 week period. I have never in 20 years seen that weather pattern. Roll out the rewrite again the MIDNR and USFWS just hate people like me that truly understand wildlife. Ok whole packs migrated across the ice. That does happen once in awhile but all of Lake Superior has to be frozen solid wolves are not swimming 10 miles open stretches during the winter just to make it to Michigan. Now check how many time Lake Superior was frozen solid over the 20 year time frame no very many. Only one way that many wolves could have showed up. They live trapped wolves in Minnesota and transported to Michigan. Like Greg was saying about IDFG making up game numbers MIDNR does the same thing. The only way to get the truth for my film on game numbers was to get the deer check in reports. I did and the deer harvested by hunters is crashing where the wolves are. Hunters are quitting in record numbers. The solution is simple first you need to see my film to see what is really going on with the people that are force to live with wolves. As a nation we need to stop stealing people’s rights and placing any man eating predators above American children. To accept the current wolf program is nothing less then reducing Americans to the Medieval times of feudal peasants who had no rights.
March 27th, 2008 at 6:45 am
This group can use some humor.
Roping A Deer…Names have been removed to protect the stupid! Actual Letter from someone who writes, and
farms.
I had this idea that I was going to rope a deer, put it in a stall, feed it up on corn for a couple of weeks, then kill it and eat it.
The first step in this adventure was getting a deer. I figured that, since they congregate at my cattle feeder and do not seem to have much fear of me when we are there (a bold one will sometimes come right up and sniff at the bags of feed while I am in the back of the truck not 4 feet away), it should not be difficult to rope one, get up to it and toss a bag over its head (to calm it down) then hog tie it and transport it home.
I filled the cattle feeder then hid down at the end with my rope.
The cattle, having seen the roping thing before, stayed well back.
They were not having any of it. After about 20 minutes, my deer showed up — 3 of them. I picked out a
likely looking one, stepped out from the end of the feeder, and threw my rope. The deer just stood there and
stared at me.
I wrapped the rope around my waist and twisted the end so I would have a good hold. The deer still just stood and stared at me, but you could tell it was mildly concerned about the whole rope situation.
I took a step towards it…it took a step away. I put a little tension on the rope and then received an education.
The first thing that I learned is that, while a deer may just stand there looking at you funny while you rope
it, they are spurred to action when you start pulling on that rope.
That deer EXPLODED.
The second thing I learned is that pound for pound, a deer is a LOT stronger than a cow or a colt. A cow or a colt in that weight range I could fight down with a rope and with some dignity.
A deer– no chance.
That thing ran and bucked and twisted and pulled. There was no controlling it and certainly no getting close to it. As it jerked me off my feet and started dragging me across the ground, it occurred to me that having a deer on a rope was not nearly as good an idea as I had originally imagined.
The only upside is that they do not have as much stamina as many other animals.
A brief 10 minutes later, it was tired and not nearly as quick to jerk me off my feet and drag me when I
managed to get up. It took me a few minutes to realize this, since I was mostly blinded by the blood flowing
out of the big gash in my head. At that point, I had lost my taste for corn-fed venison. I just wanted to get that
devil creature off the end of that rope.
I figured if I just let it go with the rope hanging around its neck, it would likely die slow and painfully somewhere.
At the time, there was no love at all between me and that deer. At that moment, I hated the thing, and I would venture a guess that the feeling was mutual.
Despite the gash in my head and the several large knots where I had cleverly arrested the deer’s momentum by
bracing my head against various large rocks as it dragged me across the ground, I could still think clearly enough to recognize that there was a small chance that I shared some tiny amount of responsibility for the situation we were in, so I didn’t want the deer to have it suffer a slow death, so I managed to get it lined back up in between my truck and the feeder - a little trap I had set before hand…kind of like a squeeze chute.
I got it to back in there and I started moving up so I could get my rope back.
Did you know that deer bite? They do! I never in a million years would have thought that a deer would bite somebody, so I was very surprised when I reached up there to grab that rope and the deer grabbed hold of
my wrist.
Now, when a deer bites you, it is not like being bit by a horse where they just bite you and then let go. A deer bites you and shakes its head–almost like a pit bull. They bite HARD and it hurts.
The proper thing to do when a deer bites you is probably to freeze and draw back slowly. I tried screaming and shaking instead. My method was ineffective.
It seems like the deer was biting and shaking for several minutes, but it was likely only several seconds.
I, being smarter than a deer (though you may be questioning that claim by now) tricked it.
While I kept it busy tearing the bejesus out of my right arm, I reached up with my left hand and pulled that rope loose. That was when I got my final lesson in deer behavior for the day.
Deer will strike at you with their front feet. They rear right up on their back feet and strike right about head and shoulder level, and their hooves are surprisingly sharp.
I learned a long time ago that, when an animal–like a horse–strikes at you with their hooves and you can’t get away easily, the best thing to do is try to make a loud noise and make an aggressive move towards the animal. This will usually cause them to back down a bit so you can escape.
This was not a horse. This was a deer, so obviously, such trickery would not work. In the course of a millisecond, I devised a different strategy.
I screamed like a woman and tried to turn and run.
The reason I had always been told NOT to try to turn and run from a horse that paws at you is that there is a good chance that it will hit you in the back of the head.
Deer may not be so different from horses after all, besides being twice as strong and 3 times as evil, because
the second I turned to run, it hit me right in the back of the head and knocked me down.
Now, when a deer paws at you and knocks you down, it does not immediately leave. I suspect it does not recognize that the danger has passed. What they do instead is paw your back and jump up and down
on you while you are laying there crying like a little girl and covering your head.
I finally managed to crawl under the truck and the deer went away.
March 27th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Greg, I never said hunting was hurting the population, I was saying hunting pressure was changing the behavior. Elk are absolutely not going to be were they were 10 years ago. Wintering grounds will change. We will loose a lot a lot of elk wintering in areas not quite suitable.
I’m assuming those you know counting elk are not counting areas that held elk 10 years ago and basing your figure on that, that wont work.
Not only is hunting pressure moving elk, wolves are now moving elk.
As far as outfitters and camps go, it isn’t hard to figure out how they will be affected by wolves. It is easy to see by your response that outfitting and guiding is a very sensitive issue with you. I will venture to say that outfitting and guiding is the number one reason for the desire to eliminate wolves. It’s about making money and trophy elk for the clients. Don’t let this get you all fired up, but maybe this discussion should be about how guides and outfitters will make a living if they can’t find the elk or if the elk are all eaten by wolves. It’s a reasonable discussion, or at least it should be.
I believe an outfitter has a right to his or her income. If only a few wolves severely threaten this, let’s discuss it.
What can an outfitter do to survive with a few wolves in the area short of shooting the wolves? Is there anything? If not, than I can certainly see why so many are for eliminating the wolf entirely.
March 27th, 2008 at 7:23 am
Greg, I never said hunting was hurting the population, I was saying hunting pressure was changing the behavior. Elk are absolutely not going to be were they were 10 years ago. Wintering grounds will change. We will loose a lot a lot of elk wintering in areas not quite suitable because of hunting pressure and wolves.
I’m assuming those you know counting elk are not counting areas that held elk 10 years ago and basing your figure on that, that wont work.
As far as outfitters and camps go, it isn’t hard to figure out how they will be affected by wolves. It is easy to see by your response that outfitting and guiding is a very sensitive issue with you. I will venture to say that outfitting and guiding is the number one reason for the desire to eliminate wolves. It’s about making money and trophy elk for the clients. Don’t let this get you all fired up, but maybe this discussion should be about how guides and outfitters will make a living if they can’t find the elk or if the elk are all eaten by wolves. It’s a reasonable discussion, or at least it should be.
I believe an outfitter has a right to his or her income. If it only takes a few wolves to severely threaten this, let’s discuss it.
What can an outfitter do to survive with wolves in the area short of shooting the wolves? Is there anything? If not, than I can certainly see why so many are for eliminating the wolf entirely.
March 27th, 2008 at 7:56 am
Greg, let me reiterate, if wolves are left to their own devices, they will likely cause the elk and deer to be listed as endangered. Anyone who disagrees with this is foolish. True, if man wasn’t in the picture farming, ranching and hunting; elk, deer and wolves would reach a balance and be fine, but that is not the case.
I may be naïve in some areas but I am not nearly as naïve as the average person. The evidence used to support “sport hunting†in wolves is week pathetic. When I was told about the gruesome photos, I was told wolves were wiping out whole herds and leaving them lie. That was total fraud and anyone who says otherwise is showing their ignorance.
Wolves kill what they need to eat. If they are left alone they will eat all they can eat. If there is not enough of a pack to eat a whole elk, some meat will be left. All the garbage about wolves killing whole herds of livestock and living them lay is nothing but lies.
I blame the pro-wolf people for the lies of the anti-wolf people just as much as I blame the pro-wolf lies on the anti-wolf people. When two groups sit and lie to one another, it only gets ugly. And if wolves are not delisted I will blame anti-wolf people more than I blame pro-wolf because anti-wolf guys fuel the fire and more time than not, the pro-wolf people are more educated meaning they lie less.
It is foolish to say there are only 25,000 elk in Idaho. It may be foolish to say there are 200,000.
I still would like to see people be reasonable. Greg, are you big enough, mature enough to be the first to admit ant-wolf groups are bad about lies. Can agree that the pictures do not depict “sport hunting�
If you can’t there really is no reason for people to respond to you. I like to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Tell us the 25,000 count could be off by a long shot, just like the 200,000 count. Tell us there is no real evidence that wolves are “sport†hunters and then you can make a real difference. We can get down to the real issues. We are all Americans; we all know how important it is to make money. Tell us the real reason a few wolves is so bad.
March 27th, 2008 at 8:47 am
I can be big enough to tell you that government trappers whom Im friends with have shown me video taken by them in Yellowstone and in Idaho of wolves doing exactly that caught on tape, SPORT KILLING.
I have personally watched it live in the Willow Creek Drainage West of my home two tears ago while sitting on my sled. I have 140 acres near Lowman Idaho, I watched sport killing activity live and in my face at the upper Banner Ridge area.
I wittnessed seven dead moose at Union Pass Wyoming, hardly even eaton on and bloated and spoiling. Sport hunting by wolves is how they teach young wolves to kill, all Predators Sport kill, the most wasteful Predator being wolves, the least wasteful Predator being Cougers.
I presume the wasted kills I have seen in back country locations from horse back in WILDERNESS AREAS I musta interupted those feeding wolves huh. OK, what ever you say David. I guess if we interupt a kill and feed zone the wolves never come back either. We scared them so bad they never come back too their kills. I never noticed Predators behave like this, even when I dug up a few couger kills to examine them, the cat still came back and moved it and fed on it.
I have good friends in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana. I guess we all just lie to one another and tell one another we are seeing the same things.
Wolves love too rip the unborn fetus from cows/ does David it is tender and juicy and they love it. FACT.
I have yet to meet a pro wolf advocate whom is more educated than myself, on natural laws, wildlife, history, political, communism, socialism, Dejure Person/ via Defacto person, Corporate artificial person via natural person. Constitutional law, Bill of Rights, real money via fake money, real law via fake law.
The wolf is nothing more than a tool too steal rights from dumb people looking in the wrong rabbit holes.
David, did you know Idaho already re-introduced elk once too Idaho due too PREDATION, do know when this occurred and why? Do you know the Predator responsible for this decimation, It was not man either. It is public record.
I find this conversation very boring and dull. I will no longer communicate with you. I do not lie, I am a freeborn spiritual being being of balance period. I’m neither this or that bunkum except truth and the search of it. Forget all the bunkum Sheep people talk and be your own Sheperd. If we meet and you call me liar to my face……you better walk on.
March 28th, 2008 at 6:53 am
Finally today near Lowman Idaho I counted 824 Elk, Still not very many yearlings. 45 miles down river I found about the same scattered along the open ground. Still nothing like what I’m used too seeing here. I know there is a wolf pack around but never saw them today. I should be, or would have been seeing over 8000 elk here in the past. No antlers in my bag yet.
March 28th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
David Idaho,
Interesting observations were made by wolf biologist Paul Paquet (who is now among the extremist “wolf” agendists now who function beyond all morality and reason) made on the large islands off the coast of B.C. Canada and published in WILDEARTH journal. He observed the wolves literally eating themselves to death. Because of the common wolf dynamic of more rapid population increase (litters of 4-5+ pups as opposed to perhaps 1, and occasionally 2 births per ungulate) not only the wolf population but the bear population would also die out because of the depletion of food species. This would leave large islands devoid of both predator and prey species unless a few of each survived, or the predator species could swim to another island with prey. Wolves seem to cause this sort of imbalance much more so than any of the other large predators, perhaps their abundant, ungulate surpassing reproduction rate contributes!
Another study I came across showed that wolf pack ‘territories’ themselves (even within a large continental landscape scale) sometimes functioned in the same way that Mr. Paquet observed on the B.C. Islands. That is forming mortality sinks, a dead zone regarding large predators and prey species.
I know people who have personally observed elk calves in a herd reduced to almost nothing overnight. I don’t know what you call that but it doesn’t seem to be ‘balance’ between predator and prey. The rural people in the Mexican wolf area are incredibly honest as a whole, whereas the public and the rural people here have been lied to about wolf behavior etc. from the git go by those who profit from the program.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
I’m not sure where “David Idaho” is in Idaho, but I’ve lived here all my 26 years and over the past several have seen that in no way is it possible that wolves kill what they need to eat. Some may, but wolves in clearwater, stanely, mackay areas darn sure kill more that they eat. Spend time up in these areas anyway and there’s no way one could think this. There is no balance, no sign of it, and management is needed. It’s years overdue. Some anti-wolf things I’ve seen are exagerated, but not complete lies- though I admit it’s just as likely as anything else. There are extremists on both sides, their lies or exagerations don’t change the fact that there is a big problem here in the northwest, and no one is seeing it but those of us who live here and see it, or who don’t choose to ignore parts of it or whathaveyou.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Actually after reading the posts carefully I know where “David” is and why his posts state what they do. Admin- email coming.
March 30th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Wolves have been delisted in ID, WY, and MT. I guess there is a very slim chance that this may change.
I hope people find away to appreciate this fact. I hope the lies can be controlled now.
Wolves are back, for better or for worse. I remain optimistic. I have seen wolves since the release, but only on the highway between Fairfield and Bellevue and the following day one got hit by a car and a second was shot at the scene by Camas County Sheriff while refusing to leave the injured wolf. The third ran off.
I hope to see wolves in more ideal circumstances. I know wolves have posed problems in other areas and strange behavior can cause issues like Mary mentioned. We however must wait and see. Can hunters manage the numbers? Will people who do not hunt draw all the tags for hunting wolves preventing wolves from being managed by hunters? If the latter takes place because of ignorance, Idaho Fish and Game will make millions off of the sale of hunting licenses and draw applications and hunters will not have the chance to manage the wolves which is foolish because it will leave Idaho Fish and Game one option which is still a reasonable option and they will have the money to support it. Idaho Fish and Game and state trappers will manage the wolves by trapping, not as humane as shooting and Fish and Game will shoot from helicopters to manage the numbers.
Either way, wolves will be managed. I hope both sides can be reasonable and let management be done in a manner less controversial.
I really hope people will stop the BS. I hope people will educate themselves. I hope the rumors will stop. Anger is a cancer. I hope the outfitters find successful ways to guide their clients. I hope to see wolves in the wild behaving properly, and if the day comes where I need to shoot a wolf, I hope people understand.
April 7th, 2008 at 5:13 am
Oh, I’m so sorry but I don’t see the difference between a pair of wolves bringing down prey and so sad low life shooting them. So the wolves took a bite or two out of it. SO what? You got some people who’ll just stick the bisons head on the wall. Anyway there must have been something else wrong with the prey, I doubt very much TWO wolves could do that on it’s own. Regardless of this, it was ONE bison. ONE! There are 100’s of the bloody things and you’re whining that it killed ONE! Problems are mainly caused by humans interferring so leave the friggin’ wolves be.
April 7th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Beck is in need of some reality. People should do their research, in respectable and proven forms, before spouting off. The issue isn’t the ONE bison, the issue is extreme imbalance.
April 7th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Well now, I was in Wyoming living the high not low life, roaring around on my hotrod sled happy as all get out (not sad at all) and low and behold a 155 pound black wolfie just up and dropped dead, musta been his heart……oh well wasn’t as easy as a coyote to skin and stretch out, but we fellers got it done and had us some ice cold brews. That ole wolf skull will dry nice and I will hang it right between my two bison skulls next to my monster muley’s in the den. hot diggity can’t wat till I go again……
April 9th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Beck,
I dont know where you live, Im guessing some well trammeled urban area. Here in New Mexico I have never known of two wolves pulling down a bison. We dont have alot of bison, except those owned by Ted Turner. However, we used to have alot of elk and two wolves can sure pull down a full grown bull. Mostly they like cows and calves though, either to eat or just to kill. They can be cow or calf ungulates or they can be bovine, our hybred wolves are highly adaptable and not at all picky. This is seen in their ability to go right on to domestic dogs, horses, sheep, pigs,………..
Now, I am sure that you have picked up much of what you know from the Animal Planet and Disney, with a fair smattering of information from the various “green” groups that dont really want anyone else, save themselves in the woods. But I would suggest that you avail yourself to any number of ranchers in the west, who have generously offered to have folks such as yourself out for a visit so that you can actually SEE what the truth of the matter is. Thus Far there have been few takers.
April 9th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
It is because these wolfie loving urbanites believe every thing they hear/see on tv and after watching the movie Deliverance they are to frightened to head on out to the Ranch for a session of truth, it must be the blue grass and those Banjo notes …..
April 15th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
I am no expert, but, I live in Idaho and I hear alot about this issue. This is nature people. This is how things have been for thousands of years. While I do understand the point ranchers make about keeping them away from livestock, the rediculous pictures of wolves killing elk are to much. Thats what animals do, its natural. In my opinion the real reason for most of the debate is teh fact that hunters are finding it much harder to kill the elk themselves as the wolves have changed the elk behavior. Sorry, maybe hunting should be more of a challege and less of a drinking fest.
April 15th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Out of the three states of Wyoming/Idaho/ Montana Wyoming is far superior in game managment tactics and has the largest prey base at this time, with Idaho being third. Wyoming biologists admit that four of the Wyoming herds are suffering so bad from incorrect cow to calf ratio that even with out Grizzly and wolf predation those herds will suffer collapse. What is taking place in those photos is natural, predators have always behaved in this fashion, BUT, this did not happen at this magnitude over thousands of years, We humans were not living here blocking natural and ancient migrations used by the animals all those years, we changed how those animals live and travel, basically landlocking elk and keeping them from the low plains of the snake river ranges. So in this deep snow calves and healthy elk have been over killed, Idaho’s cow to calf ratio is less than 30%. This means herd collapse has started in Idaho. To assume that nature will go on as it did before humans came along to steward the animals and lands is irresponsible thought processes ingrained into peoples minds by land and rights stealing elitists. To categorize all people who hunt into one lazy group of drinking bums is irresponsible also. I hunt, and I have had five beers in fifteen years. To not be aware of beverages and food products tainted with toxic preservatives and approved by the FDA is also irresponsible. Eat Organic. With the remainder of Idaho’s elk escaping wolves and reaching the plains of the snake along southern Idaho it will be easy for drunkards and poachers to kill them now. Another wonderful natural event caused by wolves.
April 16th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
First off, I live in Idaho, I have never seen a wolf yet. The photos make me sick, the reintroduction of wolves makes me sick, the thought of wolves eating calf elk as they are being born makes me sick. Yep, this is natural, as natural as it is for man to hunt. Some points:
1. The “reintroduced” wolves are not natural to the Idaho. This wolf is a much larger Canadian wolf.
2. I once read that a wolf will kill 11 elk per year for food, nearly 3 times that for fun. There is an estimated 750 wolves in Idaho. The math is simple, estimate 30 elk per wolf per year, there are roughly 110,000 elk in Idaho. Do the math, the Rocky Mountain Elk has about 5 years will it too become an endangered species driven to near extinction. Will the pendulum swing the other way?
3. There is an agency made up of many hunters who devote their time and money for the betterment of the Rocky Mountain Elk. We HARVEST a managed amount each year. This can be analogous to a cattle rancher raising cattle to be shipped to market. When his herd is threatened, he removes the threat. We removed that threat (wolves) to our elk herds over the last century only to have them shoved back down our throats by federal agencies driven by special interest groups with little common sense. I believe the people of Idaho decided we didn’t want wolves so we killed them all. What gives outsiders the right to decide what’s best for Idaho. Let’s put it on the Idaho November ballot, wolves or no wolves…let the people of Idaho decide.
Only time will tell if the reintroduction was a wise decision. I worry that we took too long to delist them and our elk herds will suffer.
April 19th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I just love people like KC ” maybe hunting should be more of a challege and less of a drinking fest.”
Ok maybe Pro wolf people should stop doing acid and smoking dope? Did you know Charles Manson was environmentalist? Do a search Charles Manson ATWA? Does that mean all the leaders in the enviromentalist movement are mass murders?
How about the dope smoking Dave Foreman you know the convicted eco terrorist that tried to buy thermite grenade to take out the national electrical grid?
Here is great quote from another environmentalist Ted Turner
Back in 1996, Turner stated in an interview with Audubon Magazine that a 95% population reduction would be ideal. Below is his quote.
“A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal.”
What was that guy’s name oh Hitler that tried to wipe out and exterminate people. Oh but lets save the eco system for the wolves. Follow your leaders of the Environmental movement right into the death camps.
April 21st, 2008 at 6:21 pm
I’m sorry Janell, we’re all entitled to our own opinions, but I can’t even BELIEVE how you can think that there are too many wolves. …
April 21st, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Dear Airy Wolf,
The admin at Wolf Crossing has been called away on family business. I am managing the site in her absence.
Because the responsibility is mine, I am choosing not to post the bulk of your recent comments. I see no virtue in your insults. Calling people names is poor form on your part. If you wish to participate in the discussion here, you need to respect the opinions and dignity of others.
At least, you need to do that as long as I am in charge.
In addition, if you really wish to add to the discussion, I suggest you cite sources for your claims.
Thank you.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:09 am
Mike,
First, thanks for holdin’ camp whilst the boss is away.
Im sure that the bulk of Airy wolfs comments were drivel, Full of the normal hair splitting semantic games the wolf lovers so often employ. Along with a smattering of feel good “factoids” and a big dose of insulting garbage for people they have never met. Perhaps Airy Wolf should change names? Airy Head?
No matter, I missed all the big “Earth Day” doin’s yesterday. So, Im gonna go fire the saw, find a big tree, cut it down and hope it lands on a wolf!
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Frank,
It’s a group effort. I am only partially in charge. In fact, I may be assistant to the assistant to the assistant. But I have been handed the whip, and I will use it.
April 25th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Speaking as temporary editor here, what I don’t get, and this really throws me for a loop, is how some people can write such profane and hate-filled diatribes when attempting (I suppose that is a fair assumption) to express their compassion for wolves.
If you want people to think you are high-minded and caring, and have deep feelings of affection for something, then how is that you express yourself with such vehement rage and belittlement toward the very folks you are trying to convince about your superior ethics?
When a wolf stalks somebody’s child, is the proper response “good for the wolf?” How does that prove your infinite compassion? It seems to me it proves the opposite.
When reasonably kind and hardworking folks are threatened and damaged by wild predators, or feral wolf-dogs, or rattlesnakes, or punitive lawsuits, or any other agent of hardship and woe, isn’t the compassionate response, “I extend my sympathies to you?” Is sympathy for the killer and dismissal/debasement of the victim somehow high-minded and a sign of an evolved consciousness?
If you live in the city and find that the idea of predators roaming rural farms and ranches is appealing and “true to nature,” that might be one thing. But when you condemn the human residents, without any evidence of their alleged “crimes” other than that they live where they live, that cannot be construed as just or merciful.
If your thing is some abstract defense of nature, then you must back that up with some expression of morality. And if that expression of morality is hatred and gutter-level profanity, then your moral high ground is nothing but a pit of mud.
That is obvious to me. It ought to be obvious to you.
And that lesson cuts both ways, right?
April 25th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Dave Martin, a retired veterinarian, was the victim of what experts say was a rare shark attack Friday, near Solana Beach in California.
Now what would be a thousand, thousand, thousand times more rare(conservative estimate) than what happened today in San Diego?
Be the first to guess correctly and get the booby prize
April 26th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Mike you said you was in charge. either approve or not my comment. Make a decision.
April 27th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Easy there, big fella. I don’t sit in the command chair all day waiting for your hurry up.
Let’s see. Man bitten by shark. And you say that’s a 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000 more frequent than what? That would be a billion, by the way.
So what you are saying, if I catch your drift, is that humans are bitten by sharks a billion times more often than attacked by wolves. In other words, for every billion people attacked by sharks, one is attacked by wolves. Conservatively.
Sorry, but that is not correct. Bruce Hemmings (Undue Burden) has accumulated records of over 100 people KILLED by wolves. Wolf Crossing has documented numerous wolf attacks in Canada and the U.S. that have occurred in the last two years. For your math to work out, over 100 billion people must have been KILLED by sharks, and 10 or 12 billion attacked by sharks in just the last two years. Conservatively.
I don’t think so. Do you have some documentation to that effect?
Or are you engaging in blind hyperbole?
Wolf Crossing has documented numerous cases of wolves stalking children just in Catron County and just in the last year. The County went so far as to erect wolf-proof cages for children while they await the school bus. Wolves have been seen within 50 yards or so from school playgrounds. Parents are alarmed to the degree that they are arming their children, or packing weapons themselves when they go out to the mailbox. People have witnessed wolves in their yards. Children have too, and some of those children are exhibiting clinical signs of post-traumatic stress.
I don’t know the count of livestock and pets KILLED by wolves in Catron County alone in the past five years, but I am guessing it is in the hundreds at least.
I’m just guessing again, Aesop, but you don’t live in Catron County, do you? I bet you live in SoCal, where there are no wolves. Just sharks. And only in the ocean, not in people’s yards stalking their children and killing their livestock and pets. I bet those sharks don’t hang around school playgrounds. I bet children don’t wait for the bus in shark proof cages.
Here’s a thought. Why don’t you bring your children to Catron County and have them run around looking for wolves. The wolves have radio collars, their locations are known. We could place your children right close to them. Then we could see if the wolves will or will not attack children. It would be a scientific experiment, with your kids, not somebody else’s. We could collect numbers and test your theories.
You see, real life is something other than what you imagine it to be. Children are precious, more precious than wolves or sharks, especially to their parents, but also even to people who are not their parents. That is called compassion. Your comments lack that quality. You apparently have some personal issues you need to deal with. Work on those, please.
April 27th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Looks like Aesopianist gets the booby prize. LMAO. Let me know if he/she shows up in Catron County for the experiment of reality. I will drive the 1200 miles south to observe and photo them running to their vehicle. All Americans have been tricked by many lies in the last 150 years involving politics, banking, and history, but this 12 years of wolves has been really a no-brainer period. Amazing there are people with human intellect who actually do not get the mistake this wolf program is. Oh I know, I know, your liar boob(y) tube told you otherwise.
April 27th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Rarity
“The Linnell and McNay reports show that wolf attacks on people are vary rare. The records they examined indicate that wolves have wounded and killed several hundreds of people, but given these attacks were over a period of centuries and throughout the northern hemisphere, wolf attacks are sparse and meagre. Only 17 cases of people killed by wolves were found in the last 50 or so years in the whole of North America, Europe and Russia - 50 people in a human population of roughly a billion people.
A revealing point which shows just how rare wolf attacks are is that they can be listed in a single document (like the Linnell Report and the McNay Report) and when attacks occur in the West the worse cases are sufficiently newsworthy for broadcast in the news media.”
This includes rabid and habituated wolves for which account for far and away the most incidents.
Number of shark attaches per year ~12. year in, year out.
So do the math there Mike. what do you come up with.
Greg Farber,
You should go to Catron County, but it looks like the village idiot job has already been filled.
April 27th, 2008 at 10:46 am
When I do the math, I do not get a ratio of a billion to one. Closer to one-to-one in recent years.
I am not familiar with the Linnell and McNay report, but Hemmings, Graves, Geist, and others have found more evidence of wolf attacks than you purport.
But I am glad that you decided to get a little bit more real than your extreme hyperbole and billion-to-one ravings. I accept your self-correction as a form of apology.
Neither Mr. Farber nor I live in Catron County. We do live in areas where predators cause problems, however. We both advocate wildlife population management and pest control. For my part, I try to refrain from calling people I don’t know “village idiots.”
But I feel your pain. You got called on your wild hare posting, and proven wrong, and you had to back down unceremoniously, so you felt the need to make an ad hominum attack on your way out the door.
Very childish, but understandable. Next time try not to embarrass yourself.
April 27th, 2008 at 11:48 am
She’s back!!
The admin has returned. I have surrendered the whip. It’s been swell. You won’t have me to kick you around anymore, but thanks for the memories.
Remember, we’re all human here, most of the time.
For more fun with critters, check out my site: Wildlife and People
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop
April 27th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Mike,
you haven’t proven me wrong about anything. McNay by the way is the biologist that convinced the Coroner in Canada on the death in Saskatchewan recently. Funny you claim not to know of him. Once again Mike do the math. What do you get. Not talking about recent years Mike, talking about a relevant period of time, Centuries in this case.
by the way I almost missed this, you say kids are being put in cages there in Catron county and then wonder why they are exhibiting psychological problems. Does state Health and welfare know about this ongoing abuse?
April 27th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
For centuries wolves have been preying on people, to a far greater extent than sharks. Read Will Graves, Wolves In Russia.
http://www.wolvesinrussia.com
For a report on Kenton Carnegie’s death, see Valerius Geist
http://wolfcrossing.org/2008/02/17/response-to-star-phoenix-saskatoon-carnegie-inquest-recommendations-to-manage-killer-wolves/
http://wolfcrossing.org/2007/12/23/when-do-wolves-become-dangerous-to-humans/
For on report on the effects of wolves on children in Catron County, see Bruce Hemmings, Undue Burden
http://www.prosts.com/
For a report on wolf proof shelters in Catron County see
http://wolfcrossing.org/2008/03/18/3-wolf-proof-bus-stop-shelters-go-up-in-new-mexico-community/853/
Everybody knows whats going on with wolves and children, except you. Smarminess is getting you nowhere. Show some compassion, or you relegate yourself to the wacko bin.
April 28th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Let’s see: Catron county is the only place in all of the United States where they are building cages for kids and then wondering why the kids exhibit psychological issues.
And you call me Whacko. Hmmmm…
April 29th, 2008 at 5:41 am
Nope, you just called your self whacko. Why would anybody even bother to acknowledge you Aesop, your fake name says it all for me. And the fact that American’s, or actually u.s. corporate 14th Amendment slave citizens to be more accurate, only have 12-13 years of experiance with wolves yet behave like “experts”, especially the pro wolfer types ridiculing those American’s living amongst the wolves and pointing out legitimate problems with the program. I will continue to listen to and observe Russians and Canadians who have lived with wolves for hundreds of years over American pro wolfers with 12-13 years so-called experiance claiming to be “experts”. The real experts from Russia and Canada told us so 12 years ago. I like the wolf, even raised one once as a young man, but this worshipping of a dog like it is some kind of god is whacko. Of course failure of the wolf program depends on our individual view points, from where Im standing it is a failure, but then I support freedom, liberty, justice, our Constitution and Bill of Rights, peoples rights to live in the mountains in seclusion and privacy, their right to not be harrassed by predators which due to improper managment practices have nearly wiped out the natural prey base they needed and now destroy livestock, pets, and will eventually take down a child. Small business is being harmed as well, that is some ones lively hood, you know a business owner like me, I go out and create income for my self, it is called Independence. Your side wants us to fail and move off the lands, your side will try to demonize us with name calling and lies, like blaming us for the collapse of the wolves natural prey bases, which is laughable, history itself proves your side wrong, just check Russia, Canada, and over 100 years of proper forestry and game management by American’s, now being destroyed by your causes, along with our forests and natural prey. People like you do not even understand the foundation of your own Freedom, How many times have you read your Constitution and Bill of Rights? How many times have you read the Ten Planks of Communism ? How many thousands of miles of pack trips have you done through our Wilderness area’s over the last thirty years with horses and mules? Had you done any of the things listed you would know the truth, you would know game herds, you would know when game herds are in collapse, and had you read those documents mentioned you would know what you are, a believer in Fables, thus your fake name suits you, Im standing on Rock, maybe you should step off the sand bank before you fall.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Funny there is a rather large rabies outbreak in southwestern New Mexico and central and Southeastern Arizona. There have been dozens of people exposed to rabies by attacks from anything ranging from foxes to bobcats and one lion.
I have noticed that the only place where rabid animals have occurred in large numbers but attacks on people have not occurred, is in Catron county. So maybe the caution taught to the kids in the county and the precautions taken with them by building shelters for their bus stops, are not abusive. Maybe they are realistic and the official goals are actually keeping those kids from harm.
Every other place where the rabid animals are showing up have had multiple humans attacked and bitten by rabid animals.
Proximity raises the stakes to attacks, not nationwide or worldwide statistics. If you and your family live in proximity to animals that are displaying habituated behavior and are still not being managed or controlled then your risk factor is substantial. If your family lives in an area with a rabies outbreak your risk of exposure is substantial. If you swim in shark infested waters for entertainment your risk is substantial.
If you hike in Grizzly territory your risk is substantial.
None of the people in the small communities of Glenwood or Reserve asked for their risk and the risk to their kids to be multiplies and indeed, the final rule states very clearly these risks will be removed. But the agencies are intent on breaking that rule so the communities have become more vigilant in taking care of their own. No one wants to talk about how the agencies are violating their rule in not removing problem animals that are showing themselves to be a danger. They just want to talk about how the parents are deliberately scaring their kids.
I recommend camping south of snow lake in the wilderness if you think these wolves are nice company. You will come home with the hair on the back of your neck permanently raised and might just have a slightly altered opinion. So until you are in proximity, don’t judge those who are.
I also have to wonder if the general opinion of those who think child lifting in India is the result of people wanting money for their dead kids would be used here if someone were killed by these animals. Yes I can see it now, we were wrong about these animals behavior but those parents abuse or neglect caused the attack. Either way, the parents in Catron county can’t win because elitism always prevails in the court of public opinion.
April 29th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Greg Farber says on 29 March 2008 at 07:22,
“…..Maybe thats why I never ran into miss Stoned before. I was in the woods while she was arguing with people in Stanely…..”
Greg Farber says on 20 Apr 2008 at 10:05 pm
“…..I was walking down a long dirt road to my truck two years ago rifle slung over my shoulder and she comes along wanting my name and where had I been and such, I just kept on walkin……..Stone ( I call her Stoned)……”
Well Greg, I guess I know all I need to know about your veracity on any given topic, or, commonly lack thereof.
April 29th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
In this neck of the woods we get people whining at us a lot, I was simply unaware of Lynn Stones Identity at the time of the snooping which took place near a Stanley trailhead two years prior, after seeing all her recent photo ops I recognize her as the ladie asking me questions that day after hunting. On March 29th I had not placed Stone, a month later I did so. At the time a assumed it was just another Ketchum kook, we have so many of them after all. You should invest your energy into some real truthseeking and fact finding instead of attempts to use honest memory lapse of a human incident to demonize your opponent who has defeated you. Now go read those Ten Planks Aesop because they are all about you and your un-American beliefs. Dont you just love the truth.
April 29th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
sure Greg sure. It’s your story. Tell it any way you want.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Comrade Aesopian Fabianist or is it slow elk poacher or Kauffman himself from the commy mt.express edit and delete oppositon comments blog spot. LMAO, and whoopee. Another nice dance around truth and facts which you can not disprove but only disagree with, you try to make others liars while living a lie. Now get back to your 10 planks of marxism and study on your true self.
Wolveshater
April 30th, 2008 at 3:59 am
((yawn))
April 30th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
well folks it’s been fun. Vaya con dios muchachos . see ya in the funny papers.
______________________________________________________
It’s not that most folks do not have instances of epiphany, it’s that most people do not know how to turn such an event into reality.
_______________________________________________________
May 1st, 2008 at 7:41 am
Aesop,
Keep trying to manifest a failed wolfie and pony show based on illegal de-facto laws and Clintonista stolen tax dollars for this wolfie show gone wrong. We don’t waste our time in the funny papers we read and study Congressional Globes, annals, and Records of Congress, along with U.S. Court rulings. And Real Science based on facts, not suppostion and perception backed by mis-guided fools looking in the funny papers. Do keep having Sweet dreams in your illusions and jaded perceptions of your reality, or actually your manifestations. And finally please go sleep on the ground in the Sawtooths or Frank Church Wilderness Area asap, your wolfie needs ya.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:59 pm
The pro wolf lovers should be brought up on child endangerment laws. They refuse to help children in need, lied about wolves coming right in childrens yards killing their pets, lied about the big game numbers being slaughter. Un like the 10,000 pro wolf people I drove down their and interview the people. You can not act or pretend the stress the people are showing living under this Undue Burden. The wolf is disaster the USFWS wants the hunt open now becasue they know the public backlash is coming. How many hikers are missing never heard of again? Who knows? But bodies are being found and always the story is the same he must fell to his death then the wolves ate him, or he died of a heart attack then the wolves ate him, or he just missing never found. Wonder how many people have already been killed slaughter and ate by wolves?
July 1st, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Ok, sorry just a few things.
1. So Greg, you don’t mind the ‘native’ species of wolf, it’s the ones from Canada that were brought to the area under the guise of ‘reintroduction’ and you say, along with several others that ‘reintroduction’ isn’t possible because this sub species of wolf never lived there, correct?
2. I remember reading somewhere, maybe not in this website but others that you want the facts out there. You want the uninformed public to ’see’ the results of the wolf as it kills for sport or just for the hell of it. I’m still struggling to grasp that particular concept because it seems that there’s an aweful lot involved with a wolf hunting down any kind of prey. That’s a lot of trouble to just do it for the hell of it. But then, I don’t think I’ve ever seen this subspecies of wolf I’ve seen you all talking about. I understand it’s a huge beast? How does it compare in size to the native one?
3. I really honestly an trying to understand here, please don’t bite my head off but where I live and yeah… I’m a suburbanite, we have a very real deer problem. There’s a lot of them because we’re kinda squeezing out their territory with more houses. (Not something I like but atm my job keeps me here or I’d gladly relocate) They did try having hunters cull or thin the herd which I applauded but there was such an uproar and they weren’t that successful anyway. What can be done in a situation like this where really the only thing a deer has to worry about in the suburbs is a fast car, truck or suv?
4. Speaking of suburbs, recently in the Chicago area, a cougar was spotted and killed. He was a big boy and healthy. Speculation is that he either roamed here from South Dakota or came down from Michigan, it sounds like they may have an active population up that way. My point is that he just kinda walked in, no one reintroduced him. Would that Canadian subspecies of wolf maybe in time have wandered down our way if it hadn’t been reintroduced?
In closing, I just want it stated for the record that I am about controls. When we start messing with Mother Nature, whether it’s killing off something or bringing it back or making a natural habitat smaller because we need more room to build houses, some controls need to be in place. I don’t like the idea of totally wiping out something but keeping it in check does seem to make some common sense. On a much smaller scale, how many stray cats and dogs have been taking over cities, breeding out of control?
And one more thing, just for the sake of argument, We weren’t the first ones here. That would be the Native Americans so I think maybe, we kind of a sub species too?
Good luck to all of you, I just had to weigh in, thank you for your time.
July 4th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
trucks for sale in the united states…
As you seem to know what your doing blogging wise, do you know what the best time of the week is to blog and have them read?…
August 8th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
I have been doing some research on all this wolf rientroduction ect…
I googled (collateral used at the world bank) interesting what I have figured out, I will share with you, and see what everyone thinks.
The world bank is used for America’s Credit Card, the collateral used for all the money that is owed at the world bank is our (National Parks, our National Forest excluding the Wilderness’s that is used for the endangered spieces, like the spotted owl, the mexican grey wolf ect…
Looking back, the spotted owl was used to shut down logging since the National Forest is used for collateral someone must of not wanted the timber cut off of the National Forest since it is used for collateral our Nations debt. Has our Government created the Endangered Spieces Act to keep everyone from useing our National Forest, such as logging, ranching, sporting/hunting fishing?
Back in the early 80s there was little Wilderness’s popping out everywhere, so I guess the 250,000.00 per wolf is cheap for all the wilderness’s to be kept from the world bank collateral.
Our Government is going to keep cutting cattle permits, and closing roads until there is nothing left for anyone to enjoy or use, its not our National Forest anymore and hasnt been since the early 1980s, I guess we all can take seat and watch the over grown National Forest fire hazard burn.
I cant believe how our Government/President’s have allowed all this. I could see CNN head line News in the 1980s saying on Television how they were going to use our National Forest / National Parks for Collateral to the world bank, so our America could keep spending money that isnt there to spend.
I guess I have said enough, But I read this and have gave it some thought. Has anyone else read anything like this?
August 9th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Since the beginning of recorded history, populations have been put under control by the imposition of urbanization. The Romans could not have conquered the celts if the celts had stayed dispersed on the countryside. Where this urbanization was not successful, places like Scotland, and Germany, the conquest was not successful.To force everyone off the land and into the city.. What better way than to destroy the means by which the rural population can sustain themselves, which is by the harvesting of natural resources? Could it be an accident that the logging and ranching industries are under attack? I believe the spotted owl, the wolf, the condor and other animals are used as a way of ultimately forcing everyone into town. How many have been forced into town already?
August 9th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
In Wayne Hage’s book, “Storm Over Rangelands”, you can see this dynamic of the wealthy elites (European royalty, bankers and industrial barons, played out in USA history. This book is very well documented and shows through meeting minutes and personal letters, etc. the manipiulations made to gain control over the resources of the Rocky Mountain West.
Numerous popular movements such as the early conservation movement and the early socialist movement in the USA were co-opted and turned from the ‘altruistic’ thoughts and activities they were founded on to serve the hidden agendas of the elite, to gain ever more control over resources and people. The environmental movement in its current powerful world-wide manifestation with obvious humanless landscape agenda from the top down is a Rothschild (family owns half the wealth of the world) creation founded in declaration at one of the international cartel/clubs of the worlds elite about 30 years ago.
Historically interests such as the Morgans and the Rockerfellers (I’m sure this was discussed all the way to Europe at least) became alarmed that the West (Rocky Mtns. etc. -water-minerals-timber storehouse of wealth) was being blanketed by the mostly small family ranches being established with traditional western land acquisition law. To the elite ranches were a hugh threat to their eventual control of these resources, 1) they blanketed the landscape with property rights and 2) they were tied to the rights to the beneficial use of the WATER upon which many of the other rights and interests they were establishing were based on.
Water, is such a limited but essential commodity to almost any industrial enterprise and a profitible product to deliver in urban situations. In their historic fashion, the ever resource control hungry elites simply secretly co-opted the early ‘conservation’ movement. Until then war had been their most effective tool for resource acquisition. Hence an innocent movement of concern at the industrial ages rapid clearcut of the Eastern Forests was turned against the ranching families of the West.
‘Forest Reserves’ , the precursor to our national forests were created through political might and intrigue- ‘passed’ by Congress after numerous failures ’somewhere’ with only a few people present. This was intentionally and specifically done to sully the title to western lands opening the way for the elite controlled government to snatch the peoples land from them at a later date.
The modern conservation or ‘environmental’ movement is a similar movement founded and funded by the elite for the elite and environmental ‘advocates’ are like the early conservation movement, useful idiots to furthe the resource control and profit of the elite. That the World Wildlife Fund and the World Bank are partnering, and the US government and the enviros are partnering is not a random event, but like war, just another war to enhance the control/wealth of the elite who have profited from both sides and often controlled the strategy on both sides of wars, ’setting them up’ using them as engines of wealth, for millenia.
The most ancient of human civilizations have written evidence of the control strategies of the elite, still in use today (see maritime law), of the need to urbanize the human population in order to have a basis for wealth accumulation. Self-sufficient cultures and free people are just dead ‘collateral’ to those who presume that they ought to own everything.
Unfortunately, much inbreeding in the same wealthy families and these unhealthy sociopathic tendencies have led to much insanity among the elites.
August 9th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Greg Scott,
Thats only part of the Collateral, your house and other real property are included as well,(Alas most likely none at this site have ever seen a REAL car TITLE, not if it said certificate of title on it, it is collateral to…THINK MAN). Every federal reserve note is credit, our real deficit at the moment is approaching 100 trillion, The government admits to 10 trillion, it is far worse than you can imagine. Those timbers, minerals, and other values are being protected for the lenders of the false notes, and it extends well beyond those forests. They want us off their lands which we thought were our lands, Environmentalism which is a Rockefeller invention persay of our era, since 1968 via the Iron Mountain Report; Blue Print to Tyranny. In 68 it looked like a joke, in 08 it looks like a done deal. This deception is massive, you can trace it back to 1868, not bad eh, steal a Nation Right out from under a Beguiled populace in 145 years. Any how, there is to much evidence, like Ive said before Ive been researching this 30+ years. See my blogs at; http:// http://www.sunvalleyonline.com click blogs click my name and read the rockefeller blog I put up two weeks ago. See my recent blog called the largest corporation on the planet. The rockefeller blog shows the think tanks created by this clan and U.N. control of the ESA and our FORESTS. Other than that get hold of me off line and I will point you in the right direction saving you massive time and getting you right on point. Glad your seeking truth. It gets very ugly my friend, very ugly indeed. Remember, I back up my claims with Congressional Globes, annalls and Records of Congress, those wolves in sheeps Clothing. Mary hit the nail on the head, this BS is INSANITY. We own nothing, not even our selves or our children. Keep yer chin up, Keep seeking, these scum will lose in the end game. Good day.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Now I feel like the border fence along the USA and Old Mexico is to keep Americans from fleeing.
I use to look at a forest fire a bad thing, now I say its not a bad thing at all, as long as people’s houses and towns are not destroyed.
I use to look at America as great wonderful place, and it is slowly being taken away, We need a new congress not just a new President, but all in all its to late for any change, Our Presidents are only a statue figure for week Americans to point there finger at or to pat on the back, depending on who needs the pat on the back.
Is our Government wanting the USA our great America to fall, so they can rebuild it with a new form of money, a new world order, and new weights and measures(metric) I am not a negative person at all, but I dont see one good thing comming out of the way our country is being run or taken care of. NOT ONE.
I cant even imagine what would of happened if our news media would put half of this on regular nite time news stations.
Its like they want to keep it a secret aslong as they can then we all Americans for the most part will not be able to do one thing about any of this stuff you are talking about, we will just have to work harder, to pay for all the high prices on everything from fuel and everything that has to do with fuel, grocries, heating homes ect…
I dont want this to get off the wolf topic but its sad how everyting is being taken away from us Americans and there isnt anything we can do about it, they say write your senators, congressmen, lol that is such a joke, they are not going to jeprodise there position to raise any red flags on anything.
well enough for tonite, talk to you all later.
I just cant belive how things are now in 2008 from the wolf/spotted owl procastination movement.
I belive we are going to see alot of changes in the next few years.
August 21st, 2008 at 10:33 pm
All of the people that are for the wolves are crazy…..they arnt even from here or where the wolves are a problem. they dont get it..Ok the wolves are pretty neat to look at.but by now they are even better to shoot..Just lke when the bear or mountainlion population is way to high, we have to make sure it doesnt overextend and eat everything from deer to moose. some of us dont have enough money to buy crappy meat from the store everytime we want to. so we have to hunt.Thats how alot of us survive the winter..we need to maintain the wolve population,just like we need to maintain the bear and mountainlion. Some of use have already started
August 24th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
In Northern Wisconsin, the ecosystem was balanced and doing just fine without Timber Wolves. Have you ever seen a dog after a wolf has “depredated” it? In case you don’t know, depredation is just a kinder way of saying that when the wolves ripped the dogs throat out, they did it so violently that they pulled the tounge clean out of the skull….
September 4th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Did everyone decide to go wolf hunting and not tell me? Where is everyone ?